Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

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praslovan
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Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

Postby praslovan » Thu 28 Mar 2019 21:38

I am pissed off at the fact that you though that no time limit games are a good idea. They are not. This is not RUSE wehre you can produce more units into oblivion. What ends up happening is whoever can spam arty and bombers more wins in the long term.
I'm amazed that this idea went past the pre alpha playthroughs... and those "few special people" that played it in closed beta... well... if they didn't complain about this then I don't know why exactly you trist them with anything apart from making you a sandwitch.

SD44 had a time limit, why on gods earths you decided that it is a good idea to remove this after 4 titles since WG EE proving you wrong.

Also "normal" income is far too high and the ammount of units you can filed is ridiculous. Sure low vet more units or high vet less units would work... if you didn't have the commander and leader buffing all the low vet stuff making hight vet not a sensible perk any more.

I understand that this is still beta, and hopefully you intedn to do something about it. Perhaps start by firing Q&A people that either
a) didn't test the the game really
b) tested it and thought this is OK
I don't know which is worse.

TL;DR Gane in this beta is a spam simmulator. All that tactics and stategic bla bla is just a farse

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Re: Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

Postby rattusxrattus » Fri 29 Mar 2019 08:58

What is a game without a time limit?
Who prevents you win quickly?
What prevents to surrender if the blitzkrieg fails?
If your blitzkrieg strategy is not necessary to sit in the bunker and wait until everything is interrupted in the ruins, capitulate.

I (and I'm not the only one) love resource depletion games, it's great.

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Re: Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

Postby Senseo1990 » Fri 29 Mar 2019 15:43

I do believe that the new gamemode needs some work but I'm not entirely sure yet. The few matches I played were all rather long. 50 minutes should not be the standard length of a match.

praslovan wrote:Also "normal" income is far too high and the ammount of units you can filed is ridiculous.


Care to explain why?

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Re: Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

Postby Fussel » Fri 29 Mar 2019 17:17

100% agree with praslovan here. No timelimit and the way these capture points work is that competitive matches will drag on for forever and end up like total destruction games were the guy who runs out of stuff first loses. Also games were the skill difference is huge just take way to long to finish.
There is no need to prolong inevitable outcomes and people will get burned out fairly quick. If the divisions have been designed with an unlimited C phase in mind I wonder what you can realy fix though one month before release. This issue should have been adressed way earlier.

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Re: Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

Postby Gronank » Fri 29 Mar 2019 19:55

An exceedingly clever bloke figured out a year ago how to adjust the ingame point counting system in SD44 to end games once there's a clear winner but still leave room for thrilling comebacks, putting it into some mod or whatever:
Philosophy and design goals

I think a key principle of good game design is that games end shortly after they're over. This principle puts to fundamentally competing demands on the construction of game modes: One, the game shouldn't end before it is established that a comback isn't possible. And two, the game shouldn't drag on for ages once it is clear that a comback isn't possible. These two demands are competeing because it is very difficult to calculate when a comeback is possible, certainly when only having access to a crude measurement like a point tally which is what the game uses to determine a victor.

The way I have chosen to reconcile these demands is to set a fairly long time limit for perfectly even games and then let more lopsided games end quicker. This is done in a way such that if the game hasn't ended yet, you're always mathematically able to pull out at least a draw (even if it might be difficult in practice).

Implementation

Conquest points are recieved every 4 seconds
point limit is 3000points
points gained for percent of the map controlled:
39%, +2
42%, +3
45%, +4
52%, +5
55%, +6
58%, +7
61%, +8

The game ends in 50 minutes if map control is contained within 48-52% for the duration of the entire game. If one side grabs 52% of the map and holds it for the duration of the game, the game lasts 40 minutes. If you get more than 55% of the map, you not only increase your own progress towards victory, you're also slowing down your opponent's. If you control 61% of the map, you can no longer lose the game (at worst drawing). The game ends after 25 minutes if you grab 61% at the start of the game and keep it.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/gronankmod.1017910/
It would work even better with the control points we have now.
Image

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Re: Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

Postby commash » Fri 29 Mar 2019 21:52

I actually like the non-timelimit default. It allows for more variety in playstyles. Do you take advantage of the activation and take a small amount of high quality units, and bank on securing an early victory, or do you use more quantities of units and try to win by attrition? I find that most of the time, i see german players have decks filled with tigers, panthers, hummels and elite panzergrenadiers, then get confused when they run out of units 20 minutes into c phase.

The only change i would like to see is an even more aggressive time to win curve. I do not feel that early decks get enough victory points out of being aggressive. Even securing +3/4 points over even does not seem to tip the victory timer enough to make maverick or vanguard good income curves.

I think it should be something like +1 -> 40 minutes to win, getting faster the more points you secure.

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praslovan
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Re: Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

Postby praslovan » Fri 29 Mar 2019 23:43

rattusxrattus wrote:What is a game without a time limit?

A really frustrating event of no skill but a showdown of who has more time to waste.
rattusxrattus wrote:Who prevents you win quickly?

At this point you should consider why you started writing this and you started to sound ridiculous. Obviously the enemy is putting up a defence who else? The pope?
rattusxrattus wrote:What prevents to surrender if the blitzkrieg fails?

Well the fact that I invested 40 minutes of my time in phase A anb B to secure enough points through gradual advancement only to be pummeled into the ground by late C phase arty and bomber (which is unrestricted since bombers don't run out of supply) spam. You can't bring enough supplies and units to effectively push some mediocre defence back, counterbattery artilery and shoot down all the bombers.

rattusxrattus wrote:I (and I'm not the only one) love resource depletion games, it's great.

Well some people also like to eat glue.

I'm wondering. Did you play agains people at all? Because I doubt you would be interested in no time limit games of arty spam if you did. Unless you don't have any other things to do in your typical day but play 2 4 hour long matches of SD2.

Senseo1990 wrote:Care to explain why?
Because then spamming is promoted which is exactly the oposite of smart utilization of units that this game is supposedly about.

As it happens right now you can be decently good in phase A and B, take enough ground and accumulate 3/4 of victory points (dont mistake them for those crop circles on the map, I'm talking about the actual points that these crop circles yield), however you won't win unless you completely annihalate the opponent which you won't if they are at least decent at the game.

What happens then is phase C comes around. Suddenly you see why you could push to 3/4 of victory points in A and B. You start seeing more and more arty. And bombers. Your deck can't handle both offensive, defensive and spammable use. You can field some artillery but not eough to counter theirs. You can get some AA but it will be pummeled by increasing number of opponents arty. If nothing else you will start running low on supplyes as you can't bring everything in your deck.

What happens then? Opponents starts to push you back, however since they invested heavily in artillery and bombers they don't have enough boots on the ground to push you back effectively. So they get just enough points to tip the counter into their favour just slightly. Since they were doing defence and mock attacks for the most part of the battle they will be far behind in victory points.

What you will see is "minor defeat in 1hour 30 min".
Or some similar nonsense.

Enjoy SD2 where phase A and especially phase B doesn't matter and phase C only encourages people to spamm.

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Re: Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

Postby AdRain » Sat 30 Mar 2019 12:11

I totally agree with you, this is nonsense right now... people are leaving the game after around 1h or 1.5h case they don't have any points and there's no sense to watch only on map.

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Re: Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

Postby KillaJules » Sat 30 Mar 2019 15:40

100% agree.

I can see that Eugen are trying to make phase C actually matter since in SD44, games were generally decided long before that point. SD44 had the opposite problem where games where decided early on so that even if you manage a massive comeback in phase C and take over most of the map, the timer would run out and you would lose before you could accumulate enough victory points.

What Eugen should do instead is make it so that both sides automatically gain victory points even if one side holds a greater portion of the map. However, the side with less territory would gain victory points at a slower rate. For example, having 50% or less map control would give you 0.5 victory points per second. Holding 51% or more would give you 1 point per second, holding 55% would give you 1.5 victory points per second. That's just a rough estimate but it would help ensure that matches are a close call throughout the game. It is unintuitive how in SD44 the winner could have hundreds or even over a thousand victory points and the loser have nothing at all (so the scoreboard would look like a one-sided stompfest) but the winning side is actually only just barely holding onto most of the map for most of the game. In SD44, the winner could collapse in phase C and still win by running out the clock.

Combining a time limit for Phase C while having both sides accumulate points this way would delay the point at which a match is decided without allowing games drag on too much. It would help make games a close call victory points wise for a longer proportion of the match without being tedious in Phase C.

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Re: Unlimited time and air resources makes game broken beyond playable

Postby Drang » Sun 31 Mar 2019 11:03

Pras seems to be overstating the case - no time limit games are valid game modes and simply encourage a different type of playstyle. You also see the most maneuvere warfare in them, and the least volume of meme anal-retentive micro that you used to see in some of the earlier titles.
That said: I have a house, a partner, a family, a fairly serious battletech modelling addiction and a gym membership to use, along with an employer with the unreasonable idea I should actually turn up to the office. I need time limits on most of my games, and I suspect the majority of us do.

It's a valuable feature and should not be discarded.

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