Sherman Firefly neeeds buff

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中铁四局
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Sherman Firefly neeeds buff

Postby 中铁四局 » Mon 10 Jun 2019 17:39

Dear all, This is just a rant post about sherman firefly

Since SD 1944 is the availability of panthers are twice if not thrice as more than shermanfirefly.

And firefly in SD2 is scheisse
Spoiler : :
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Last edited by 中铁四局 on Thu 13 Jun 2019 00:58, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Please increase the availability of Sherman Firefly

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Mon 10 Jun 2019 18:25

We are not modeling armies, but divisions.
And doing so, we are giving each division its exact TO&E, then we're adding some extra units as attachments when we feel it is needed.

A German Panzerdivision had an organic Panther battalion of ~75-80 tanks. Theorically that is, for 20. panzer was missing the Panther battalion entirely (hence none ingame) & although 21. Panzer had the proper number of 2 battalions, the one which should have Panther still had old Panzer IV & Somua by the time the Allied landed in Normandy.
And we're sticking to those numbers.

Now, let's check the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division which had ... no tank. Not one. All of its tanks are attachment from 2nd Canadian Armored Brigade. And in such brigades, Firefly only accounted for under 10% of the total. Which is exactly the ratio of Firefly among the tanks we've attached to 3CID.

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Re: Please increase the availability of Sherman Firefly

Postby core.- » Tue 11 Jun 2019 19:44

In otherwords... If you want to be historically accurate we'll just remove the Firefly's from the 3CID.

But if you're saying the 3CID needs some multiplayer balance love, then you shouldn't post historical figures and just state what the issue is.
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Re: Please increase the availability of Sherman Firefly

Postby 中铁四局 » Wed 12 Jun 2019 15:24

core.- wrote:In otherwords... If you want to be historically accurate we'll just remove the Firefly's from the 3CID.

But if you're saying the 3CID needs some multiplayer balance love, then you shouldn't post historical figures and just state what the issue is.


I'm fine with firefly removed from 3CID for historical purpose, but the wehrboo will riot if game reflects too much historical.

All I want to say is sherman firefly got way way too few in numbers compare to panthers.


BUT, you knew, NVM, I don't think I need another peashooter.
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Re: Sherman Firefly neeeds buff

Postby Coletrain » Sat 15 Jun 2019 07:50

Depending on the map 3rd Canadian feels quite strong, 17-pdrs and 150mm rocket Mosquitos are quite effective at dealing with heavy tanks in most situations.

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Re: Please increase the availability of Sherman Firefly

Postby IronHat » Wed 26 Jun 2019 09:03

[EUG]MadMat wrote:We are not modeling armies, but divisions.
And doing so, we are giving each division its exact TO&E, then we're adding some extra units as attachments when we feel it is needed.

A German Panzerdivision had an organic Panther battalion of ~75-80 tanks. Theorically that is, for 20. panzer was missing the Panther battalion entirely (hence none ingame) & although 21. Panzer had the proper number of 2 battalions, the one which should have Panther still had old Panzer IV & Somua by the time the Allied landed in Normandy.
And we're sticking to those numbers.

Now, let's check the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division which had ... no tank. Not one. All of its tanks are attachment from 2nd Canadian Armored Brigade. And in such brigades, Firefly only accounted for under 10% of the total. Which is exactly the ratio of Firefly among the tanks we've attached to 3CID.

the proportion for Firefly seems a bit off.
Panzer lehr (which was extravagantly lavished with tanks) had ~86 panther out of a total of ~200 tanks.

the paper number of tanks for a british tank division was 343, 205 of which were medium tank. Standard tactic was 1 Sherman VC to every 3 Sherman V. This means 36 of those 205 medium tanks were Firefly. (~18%)

An british independent tank brigade would have had roughly the same number of medium tanks as a regular british tank division. The biggest difference between a divisional brigade and the independent tank brigade was the presence of the motor/mechanized battalion. An british independent was basically the medium tank of a tank division without the division, as the accompany infantry division would be expected to have those.

2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade was a special in that some of their squadron were entirely equipped with DDV for the landing.

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Re: Sherman Firefly neeeds buff

Postby Miskyavine » Fri 28 Jun 2019 04:59

So whens Germany getting realistic plane numbers?
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Re: Sherman Firefly neeeds buff

Postby praslovan » Fri 28 Jun 2019 16:48

Miskyavine wrote:So whens Germany getting realistic plane numbers?

Shhhh you are asking an inorganic question.

Guys it is great that you go for the historical thing... but keep it in SP (that is why you worked on it right?) and be more relaxed for the MP purpose of balance..

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Re: Sherman Firefly neeeds buff

Postby IronHat » Sat 29 Jun 2019 02:53

praslovan wrote:
Miskyavine wrote:So whens Germany getting realistic plane numbers?

Shhhh you are asking an inorganic question.

Guys it is great that you go for the historical thing... but keep it in SP (that is why you worked on it right?) and be more relaxed for the MP purpose of balance..


OP did originally ask a balance question, got a historical answer from madcat back. I agree that it was really a flawed respond to begin with.


Sherman firefly can not match panther in the field 1 on 1. The sole deck with them in the game can't really afford losing them when there's only 8 max.

Even the soviet lack the is-2 to grind down the panther. the 29th guard only get 14 max, compare to ~61 on the 5th panther or the ~99 on the lehr. However, is-2 can actually hold down a panther pretty well, and the 12 you get is enough to absorb some loses.

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Re: Sherman Firefly neeeds buff

Postby masterc101 » Sat 29 Jun 2019 21:23

I agree, at this moment in time, for balance reasons, the firefly should have a bit more availability. I'm not sure if its by design but usually the Germans feel overwhelming which is fine, but the early tiger and Panther rushes are too strong atm. Canada is a combined forces heavy div and i love playing them bu the only AT power they have is 17 pounders to combat the Tiger and Panther horde. which sucks because as soon as they fire, they're immediately blown away by the Germans annihilating arty. Just would like an option for at least taking on all the heavies thrown our way...maybe add piats to the mediocre inf we got or even add Achilles. Anything would help at this point. I understand its still early and a lot of balancing is to be done, but i think this games amazing, and I'm addicted to this game. I'm from Canada so I guess I got a bit of a biased lol :lol:.

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