Sherman Firefly neeeds buff

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Re: Please increase the availability of Sherman Firefly

Postby Bastables » Thu 4 Jul 2019 10:55

IronHat wrote:
[EUG]MadMat wrote:We are not modeling armies, but divisions.
And doing so, we are giving each division its exact TO&E, then we're adding some extra units as attachments when we feel it is needed.

A German Panzerdivision had an organic Panther battalion of ~75-80 tanks. Theorically that is, for 20. panzer was missing the Panther battalion entirely (hence none ingame) & although 21. Panzer had the proper number of 2 battalions, the one which should have Panther still had old Panzer IV & Somua by the time the Allied landed in Normandy.
And we're sticking to those numbers.

Now, let's check the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division which had ... no tank. Not one. All of its tanks are attachment from 2nd Canadian Armored Brigade. And in such brigades, Firefly only accounted for under 10% of the total. Which is exactly the ratio of Firefly among the tanks we've attached to 3CID.

the proportion for Firefly seems a bit off.
Panzer lehr (which was extravagantly lavished with tanks) had ~86 panther out of a total of ~200 tanks.

the paper number of tanks for a british tank division was 343, 205 of which were medium tank. Standard tactic was 1 Sherman VC to every 3 Sherman V. This means 36 of those 205 medium tanks were Firefly. (~18%)

An british independent tank brigade would have had roughly the same number of medium tanks as a regular british tank division. The biggest difference between a divisional brigade and the independent tank brigade was the presence of the motor/mechanized battalion. An british independent was basically the medium tank of a tank division without the division, as the accompany infantry division would be expected to have those.

2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade was a special in that some of their squadron were entirely equipped with DDV for the landing.

You're rounding up the percentage of fireflys as they were not included in the regt or sqn HQ. Only 342 Fireflys deployed to 21 Army for the Invasion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_A ... rld_War_II

Compare with number of Panther's deployed during Normandy with Pz Div : 623 (2000 Zetterling pg 60)
Tiger's for D-Day counted up another 126. ( 2000 Zetterling pg59)

2nd and 9th Pz had 79 Panther's for Normandy which is line with paper pz div.

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Re: Please increase the availability of Sherman Firefly

Postby 中铁四局 » Thu 4 Jul 2019 16:43

Bastables wrote:

You're rounding up the percentage of fireflys as they were not included in the regt or sqn HQ. Only 342 Fireflys deployed to 21 Army for the Invasion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_A ... rld_War_II

Compare with number of Panther's deployed during Normandy with Pz Div : 623 (2000 Zetterling pg 60)
Tiger's for D-Day counted up another 126. ( 2000 Zetterling pg59)

2nd and 9th Pz had 79 Panther's for Normandy which is line with paper pz div.



panther's battle readily reach its "highest" availability rates at whopping 54% in 1944. so?
Dear Eugen, Please give T-72BU its iconic red-eye shtora system back! It looks mean and awesome!

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Re: Please increase the availability of Sherman Firefly

Postby IronHat » Wed 10 Jul 2019 05:09

Bastables wrote:You're rounding up the percentage of fireflys as they were not included in the regt or sqn HQ. Only 342 Fireflys deployed to 21 Army for the Invasion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_A ... rld_War_II

Compare with number of Panther's deployed during Normandy with Pz Div : 623 (2000 Zetterling pg 60)
Tiger's for D-Day counted up another 126. ( 2000 Zetterling pg59)

2nd and 9th Pz had 79 Panther's for Normandy which is line with paper pz div.

342 vs 623/ 749 means a ~1/2 ratio for firefly vs panther/tiger, which is still a vastly better ratio for the Firefly compared to the ~1:10 ratio in the game right now.


both the 7th armored division wiki article and the wiki article you posted state 36 firefly per division for the normandy invasion, which is actually more than necessary for a 1:4 Vc/V ratio for the line squadron/troops. I assume the extra act as reserves for those lost or in maintenance.

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Re: Sherman Firefly neeeds buff

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Thu 11 Jul 2019 20:51

Theorical number of Firefly per "Commonwealth" armoured division is indeed 36.
And 22 for an independant tank brigade.

This table might be of some interest to you:
http://www.niehorster.org/017_britain/4 ... _21AG.html

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Re: Sherman Firefly neeeds buff

Postby IronHat » Sat 20 Jul 2019 02:03

[EUG]MadMat wrote:Theorical number of Firefly per "Commonwealth" armoured division is indeed 36.
And 22 for an independant tank brigade.

This table might be of some interest to you:
http://www.niehorster.org/017_britain/4 ... _21AG.html

that info would need some qualification.
the chart is the number of tanks per division and brigade going into the normandy invasion, or more specifically, the landing and immediate time period afterward.

the 8th british, the 27th british, and 2nd Canadian armor brigade were all tasked with directly supporting the landing and were there storming the beach alongside the infantry. the 8th was assigned to gold, 27th to sword, and 2nd to juno. For this task some of their tank squadron were equipped entirely with DD. It wouldn't have made sense to have tank troops/platoon with mixed Amphibious DD and land only Firefly.

this is why they have less than the divisional allowance of the 36 firefly. Note that the 2nd canadian and 8th armored had 4/9 of their tank squadron equipped with the DD, while the 27th had 3/9 of their squadron with DD. This is why the 2nd and 8th had 22 VC while the 27th had 29.

The 4th british armored brigade was not part of the landing force on d-day, and landed on June 7th (D-day+1). This mean none of their squadron were fitted with DD and had the same sherman loadout as a british armor division, 36 Firefly.

the other outliners are either churchill brigade, other specalist unit (mine clearer for the ie the 30th), or polish (who just seems to get the short end of the stick).

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