MG-42 Range discrepancy

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steppewolf
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Re: MG-42 Range discrepancy

Postby steppewolf » Sat 20 Jul 2019 13:59

Azaz3l wrote:The way I see how stats should be:
Both Allied/German MGs get the same range. Germans get higher RoF but slightly lower accuracy, Allies get higher accuracy but lower RoF.


Do you actually have some hard data to back the usage of Allied MGs in the same way with German MGs, meaning long range direct fire? Or is just a thing you want because you don't like the actual set up?

MG42 was the best HMG of WW2, uncontested. None other of comparable caliber and on tripod was close to it, accuracy, range, rof, whatever you like.
Actually the MGs were more accurate due to shoulder held trigger while the others (Vickers, Besa, Zb, Soviet ones) used traditional HMGs with simple button and handles which made them less accurate.

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Re: MG-42 Range discrepancy

Postby Azaz3l » Sat 20 Jul 2019 14:12

steppewolf wrote:Yet it didn't reach the performance of MG42.

Define "didn't reach". The differences in performance are most probably marginal that they don't justify the difference in range.
steppewolf wrote:Actually it was insanely accurate when you didn't full auto. The standard firing of the MG42 wasn't fully auto, it was 5 round bursts. Any fully automatic gun is going to be inaccurate when you just spray it.

Maxim MG was insanely accurate even when going full auto due to low rate of fire and heavy carriage for example.
steppewolf wrote:MG42 was able to fire to 3000 meters direct fire, it had the sightings for it. Other MGs were able to do this only with indirect fire. It physical enough to justify the range ?

Again, Maxim's MG model 1930 was also sighted to 2700m with iron sights, this is not something unique to MG42.
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Firing to those ranges using iron sights was pretty ambitious for any of the MGs in any case and absolutely not unique to Germans.
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Re: MG-42 Range discrepancy

Postby Azaz3l » Sat 20 Jul 2019 14:32

steppewolf wrote:Do you actually have some hard data to back the usage of Allied MGs in the same way with German MGs, meaning long range direct fire? Or is just a thing you want because you don't like the actual set up?

For example, the crew of Maxim MG literally included a person responsible for rangefinding.
In capable hands, the “maxim” MG was a very effective weapon. Machine guns could be equipped with optical sights, and the crew included an observer with a rangefinder. In addition to various types of direct fire, the crew of the machine guns were also trained in shooting from closed positions.

While it was riddled with other issues, accuracy and firing at long ranges was definitely not part of them, and those qualities were totally not something unique to the Germans.

steppewolf wrote:MG42 was the best HMG of WW2, uncontested. None other of comparable caliber and on tripod was close to it, accuracy, range, rof, whatever you like.

That's a pretty brave statement.
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Re: MG-42 Range discrepancy

Postby steppewolf » Sat 20 Jul 2019 14:41

So you are basically telling me a WW1 design is as good as a MG42. As much as don't like the wehraboos, there is a reason for which that gun is used even today instead of water cooled ones.

I won't go to compare it with a Maxim, but see here a comparison with a SG-43.



see at minute 8:08 how the SG-43 wheel carriage is moving when the machine gun fires. It is actually pointed this in the video, at an earlier time.

Also see the Maxim movements which denies (physically) your statement regarding the stable carriage.



and now let's compare the carriage stability:

Maxim MG


MG 42

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Re: MG-42 Range discrepancy

Postby praslovan » Sat 20 Jul 2019 17:20

TL;DR just because you had a range-finder of 2km that doesn't mean that you can actually effectively do something at that range on average.

Quick maths... more bullets down the range, better the chance you will hit something even if you are not accurate therefore you are effective.

Quality through quantity.

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Re: MG-42 Range discrepancy

Postby steppewolf » Sat 20 Jul 2019 18:28


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Azaz3l
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Re: MG-42 Range discrepancy

Postby Azaz3l » Sat 20 Jul 2019 18:37

praslovan wrote:Quick maths... more bullets down the range, better the chance you will hit something even if you are not accurate therefore you are effective.

Isn't that contradictory to
steppewolf wrote:The standard firing of the MG42 wasn't fully auto, it was 5 round bursts.
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Re: MG-42 Range discrepancy

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Sat 20 Jul 2019 18:42

steppewolf wrote:best ww2 MG which was kept in service in an improved version up to present days?


M2 brownings, M1919's, hell even SG-43's are still fairly common in the modern battlefield.


I was going to say if the MG-42 had a specialised optic to allow for long range curtain fire, but it seems the MG-34/42 tripod did actually have one. But this wasn't gun specific, it fitted any modern German tripod for it's time, so it wouldn't be MG-42 exclusive.

The only other thing I could think of is the MG-42's ability to spew out lead at a faster rate than any other gun, which doesn't make sense as it'd be far better represented with a higher accuracy and suppression over increased range (Which it already has IIRC).
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Re: MG-42 Range discrepancy

Postby steppewolf » Sat 20 Jul 2019 19:26

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:
steppewolf wrote:best ww2 MG which was kept in service in an improved version up to present days?
M2 brownings, M1919's, hell even SG-43's are still fairly common in the modern battlefield. .


M2 Browning is a different league, I mentioned it before as best of its caliber, M1919 is not in use in NATO countries anymore and wasn't produced after 1945. SG-43 is just from older stocks but it was replaced with General Purpose MG PKT while M3, an adaptation of MG43 was used in NATO as GPMG

Azaz3l wrote:
praslovan wrote:Quick maths... more bullets down the range, better the chance you will hit something even if you are not accurate therefore you are effective.

Isn't that contradictory to
steppewolf wrote:The standard firing of the MG42 wasn't fully auto, it was 5 rounds bursts.


The ROF was actually customized in many ways. The most common was 5 rounds bursts. So no contradiction here.
Sights of MG42

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Re: MG-42 Range discrepancy

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Sat 20 Jul 2019 19:40

steppewolf wrote:M2 Browning is a different league, I mentioned it before as best of its caliber, M1919 is not in use in NATO countries anymore and wasn't produced after 1945. SG-43 is just from older stocks but it was replaced with General Purpose MG PKT while M3, an adaptation of MG43 was used in NATO as GPMG


So if it's not used by NATO it's bad?

Also the M1919 was still produced until the 1960's within the US.

The ROF was actually customized in many ways. The most common was 5 rounds bursts. So no contradiction here.
Sights of MG42


He was more asking how the MG-42 was used, was it used in bursts? Or was it used full auto?

Also that's just a 3D rendition of the scope with zero information about the scope itself. It's useless as an argument.
Last edited by Grabbed_by_the_Spets on Sat 20 Jul 2019 19:44, edited 1 time in total.
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