Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

IronHat
Specialist
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed 26 Jun 2019 08:20
Contact:

Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

Postby IronHat » Fri 26 Jul 2019 04:13

1) I believe this is meant to be the Sk 105mm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_cm_schwere_Kanone_18

while the german did had a 100mm in ww2, it was a legacy ww1 weapon and look significantly different from the model.

2) its accuracy seems to be screwed up. Its HE accuracy is 45%, making it the most accurate howitzer in the game. This seems to be an error as its AP shell is also 45% percent. Generally howitzer with both AP/heat round have significantly worst accuracy on the HE round.

the other example of identical AP/HE accuracy is the german s.FH 396 122mm, the soviet m-30 122mm, and the soviet a-19 122mm. collectively they are all tied for second most accurate howitzer with an accuracy of 40%

the german GebH.40 105mm also have 40% accuracy, but it doesn't have AP shell.

Outside of those example, most howitzer sits at 20-30%

User avatar
steppewolf
Second-Lieutenant
Posts: 883
Joined: Mon 26 Aug 2013 10:38
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Contact:

Re: Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

Postby steppewolf » Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:13

I think you are right about the caliber, should be 105 mm indeed.

However, the accuracy part is intended as SK is not a howitzer but a Schwere Kanone (field gun)

There are 3 distinct categories of artillery:

cannon/guns: long barrels and relatively flat trajectories
howitzers: short barrels and low-angled trajectories
mortars: the shortest barrels and high-angled trajectories

Here is an illustration of the trajectories:

Image

SK 18 is not a howitzer to be compared with one but a cannon and the barrel is longer , fire thicker rounds to take a bigger pressure and fire at higher velocities. It's mainly designed for long range fire support.

The howitzer is the cheaper fire support with shorter barrel and less range, lower recoil, lower round velocity. The arch trajectory allowed to shoot into trenches or fire over hills. However due to shorter barrel the range was shorter, low velocity mean AT performance was poor, accuracy was poor.

So in game the guns/cannons are the long range snipers and the cards are limited while the howitzers are doing the heavy lifting at close range.

IronHat wrote:
the german GebH.40 105mm also have 40% accuracy, but it doesn't have AP shell.

Outside of those example, most howitzer sits at 20-30%


This is also odd, it seems it has an AP shell as well.

About accuracy, I've no idea.

SP GebH105 on RSO when? :P joke aside, never, it was used for transportation trough mud.

Image

IronHat
Specialist
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed 26 Jun 2019 08:20
Contact:

Re: Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

Postby IronHat » Sat 27 Jul 2019 08:44

steppewolf wrote:I think you are right about the caliber, should be 105 mm indeed.

However, the accuracy part is intended as SK is not a howitzer but a Schwere Kanone (field gun)

There are 3 distinct categories of artillery:

cannon/guns: long barrels and relatively flat trajectories
howitzers: short barrels and low-angled trajectories
mortars: the shortest barrels and high-angled trajectories

Here is an illustration of the trajectories:

SK 18 is not a howitzer to be compared with one but a cannon and the barrel is longer , fire thicker rounds to take a bigger pressure and fire at higher velocities. It's mainly designed for long range fire support.

The howitzer is the cheaper fire support with shorter barrel and less range, lower recoil, lower round velocity. The arch trajectory allowed to shoot into trenches or fire over hills. However due to shorter barrel the range was shorter, low velocity mean AT performance was poor, accuracy was poor.

So in game the guns/cannons are the long range snipers and the cards are limited while the howitzers are doing the heavy lifting at close range.


the sk18 is not the longest barrel in game. The Long tom 155m used by the american had a longer barrel at ~7m compared to the sk18's ~5.5m. Yet the long tom's accuracy is only 30% compare to the sk18's 45%. Even in terms of length caliber, the 155mm is l45 while the 105mm is l52. that extra caliber length shouldn't be 50% proportionally more accurate.

not to mention there's a limit to how accurate you can be when you firing blind with no spotter. you simply have no way of know if you're hitting or missing by how much. The sk18's current 45% accuracy seems to make it as accurate as regular (30%) howitzer with spotting.

User avatar
steppewolf
Second-Lieutenant
Posts: 883
Joined: Mon 26 Aug 2013 10:38
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Contact:

Re: Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

Postby steppewolf » Sat 27 Jul 2019 09:00

155 mm Long Tom is a field gun, not a howitzer. You asked about howitzers.

You asked about the difference between guns and howitzers, not between accuracy of two field guns. Also compared with caliber, 105 mm vs 155, the German one have barrel lenght 5.46 m (18 ft) L/52 while the US one 6.97 m (22 ft 10 in) L/45.

Now that you mention, Long Tom ROF looks exaggerated (8 rounds/minute) compared with 5 of Schwere Kanone.

IronHat
Specialist
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed 26 Jun 2019 08:20
Contact:

Re: Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

Postby IronHat » Sun 28 Jul 2019 02:52

steppewolf wrote:155 mm Long Tom is a field gun, not a howitzer. You asked about howitzers.

You asked about the difference between guns and howitzers, not between accuracy of two field guns. Also compared with caliber, 105 mm vs 155, the German one have barrel lenght 5.46 m (18 ft) L/52 while the US one 6.97 m (22 ft 10 in) L/45.

Now that you mention, Long Tom ROF looks exaggerated (8 rounds/minute) compared with 5 of Schwere Kanone.

you're too caught up on the semantics, on what label the german decided to call their weapons.

the long tom have a muzzle velocity of 853m/s, higher than the the SK18's muzzle velocity of 835m/s.

The fact the Long Tom's gun cartridge could also go 66 degree while the sk18's gun cartridge could only go 48 degree doesn't make the long tom less accurate.

This is still ignoring the fact it's indirect fire. the gun's own dispersal means a lot less when you can't even see what you are shooting at with no feedback.

And yes, long tom have high rof. It's also why it's the most expensive towed howitzer in the game at 150 pt. Only the 203mm and 280mm are actually more expensive for artillery and they are technically SPG. Even the ML-20 and the s.FH 18 (both ~150mm) are only 120pt.
Meanwhile the Sk-18 at 80 pt only have a middling price. Even the 25 pounder is more expensive at 90 pt.

User avatar
Miskyavine
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat 18 Feb 2012 09:03
Contact:

Re: Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

Postby Miskyavine » Mon 29 Jul 2019 01:47

Doesnt ROF on artillery just mean thats how many times it fires per barrage?
How i feel when reading the OFF TOPIC section of the forums http://imgur.com/gallery/t9IXqDs
Image

User avatar
steppewolf
Second-Lieutenant
Posts: 883
Joined: Mon 26 Aug 2013 10:38
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Contact:

Re: Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

Postby steppewolf » Mon 29 Jul 2019 09:19

IronHat wrote:you're too caught up on the semantics, on what label the german decided to call their weapons.

the long tom have a muzzle velocity of 853m/s, higher than the the SK18's muzzle velocity of 835m/s.

The fact the Long Tom's gun cartridge could also go 66 degree while the sk18's gun cartridge could only go 48 degree doesn't make the long tom less accurate.

This is still ignoring the fact it's indirect fire. the gun's own dispersal means a lot less when you can't even see what you are shooting at with no feedback.

And yes, long tom have high rof. It's also why it's the most expensive towed howitzer in the game at 150 pt. Only the 203mm and 280mm are actually more expensive for artillery and they are technically SPG. Even the ML-20 and the s.FH 18 (both ~150mm) are only 120pt.
Meanwhile the Sk-18 at 80 pt only have a middling price. Even the 25 pounder is more expensive at 90 pt.


OK, let's not get caught into semantics.

Can you explain me why muzzle velocity of a field gun should improve indirect fire accuracy?

Also, why did you wanted to say by "cartridge"? How it can go a cartridge 66 degrees? fires over a corner or what? If you wanted to say "carriage", what does it doing with those degrees? How is it called, elevation / depression ? How would affect indirect fire accuracy ?

As for calibers around 150 mm, howitzers have 20% and guns or more modern pieces get 30%. Caliber wise, the accuracy is consistent in same class of guns/howitzers. So a comparison could be made with 150 mm German ones which are all less accurate than Soviet/Allied same category. Only the Hungarian one hits 30% accuracy.

Obviously 100 - 122 range of calibers is a different class and Allies have their 40% accuracy weapons as well (e.g Soviet 122 mm M-30).

About prices, did you also checked the effect on target, the blast, what it can deliver? Can you please compare it with gun / howitzers from same category and not one class above?

as for Long Tom, I didn't find any reason why the ROF is that good, care to link me to an article that explain how it works?

IronHat
Specialist
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed 26 Jun 2019 08:20
Contact:

Re: Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

Postby IronHat » Tue 30 Jul 2019 07:31

steppewolf wrote:
OK, let's not get caught into semantics.

Can you explain me why muzzle velocity of a field gun should improve indirect fire accuracy?

Also, why did you wanted to say by "cartridge"? How it can go a cartridge 66 degrees? fires over a corner or what? If you wanted to say "carriage", what does it doing with those degrees? How is it called, elevation / depression ? How would affect indirect fire accuracy ?

As for calibers around 150 mm, howitzers have 20% and guns or more modern pieces get 30%. Caliber wise, the accuracy is consistent in same class of guns/howitzers. So a comparison could be made with 150 mm German ones which are all less accurate than Soviet/Allied same category. Only the Hungarian one hits 30% accuracy.

Obviously 100 - 122 range of calibers is a different class and Allies have their 40% accuracy weapons as well (e.g Soviet 122 mm M-30).

About prices, did you also checked the effect on target, the blast, what it can deliver? Can you please compare it with gun / howitzers from same category and not one class above?

as for Long Tom, I didn't find any reason why the ROF is that good, care to link me to an article that explain how it works?



muzzle velocity is one of the main factor in a projectile's trajectory, the higher the muzzle velocity, the flatter the trajectory (all thing being equal).
Maximum firing range is achieve by either 45 degree elevation( or the highest available below 45). In this case both the sk18 and the long tom are capable of 45 degree elevation. Since the long tom have a higher max range (~24km vs ~19KM), it would mean the long tom have a flatter trajectory.

and actually the United State classify the long tom as a "gun", not a howitzer. 155 mm Gun M1. They do have a 155m howitzer during ww2 but it's not in the game and the howitzer wasn't nicknamed "long tom". The model in game is also clearly that of a long tom.

And 30% accuracy should really be the max on a indirect firing piece. the 122mm and sk18 should have their indirect accuracy lowered to 30%. They shouldn't be 30% and 45%.

and the damage and blast stats are right in the armory to view. the 155mm long tom have the same damage and blast as the german s.FH 414(f). the long tom cost 40 pt extra for the higher rof and accuracy. If the long tom get the same 3 r/m rof as other ~150mm gun piece, its cost would need to be significantly lower.

User avatar
steppewolf
Second-Lieutenant
Posts: 883
Joined: Mon 26 Aug 2013 10:38
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Contact:

Re: Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

Postby steppewolf » Tue 30 Jul 2019 15:38

I don't have access to game now and I asked somebody else to tell me and the 45% accuracy you keep telling me about is that for direct fire rounds. Guns can fire directly and have AP rounds.

IronHat
Specialist
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed 26 Jun 2019 08:20
Contact:

Re: Sk18 100 mm bugs thread

Postby IronHat » Wed 31 Jul 2019 03:00

steppewolf wrote:I don't have access to game now and I asked somebody else to tell me and the 45% accuracy you keep telling me about is that for direct fire rounds. Guns can fire directly and have AP rounds.


click on the specific ammo to see only its stats. By default, a weapon will display the highest numerical value available to a weapon. Usually this mean penetration from the AP rounds, blast from HE rounds, etc. it's 45% accuracy for both the 10.5cm sk 18 AP and HE(indirect) rounds.

As I stated in my originally post, normally the HE have much lower accuracy than the AP. However, The 10.5cm sk18, and 122mm artillery (both russians and germans), have the same accuracy on their HE and AP. This led to their HE being more accuracy than other artillery pieces. 45% for the sk18, and 40% on the 122m. The next highest is 30%.

Return to “Steel Division 2”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests