Some common noob mistakes

phawkins1988
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby phawkins1988 » Sat 7 Apr 2012 15:44

Soyaman wrote:@Phawk
True, if I face a guy with tanks I will lose. But the point of my strategy is not to play 1v1, or hold an area by myself. It's to capture areas, aid everyone and get a general idea of the battlefield's movement.

Ah OK, I mainly play 1v1 so can't comment on bigger battles.

Tordin Varglund
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby Tordin Varglund » Sat 7 Apr 2012 16:23

brogan123 wrote:
Tordin Varglund wrote:If you are able to use helicopters effectively then thats more the fault of you opponent than you doing it right.

AA outranges helicopters by such a huge margin they are more or less useless outside of the very start of the game when units are still setting up. After the initial setup, any decent player will have no issues at all dealing with any amount of air units.

There are no useless categories of unit in this game. If the enemy has no AA, helicopters become very effective. If the enemy buys AA, your helicopter has just been extremely effective because that's money he isn't spending on defending against your push.


Helis are the easiest units to kill off in the entire game. Hell its not even like you need more than 2-3 long range platforms to almost completely negate their effect, and your example is flawed, because while he (may) have to spend money to counter your air units, many AA units are cheaper than the kind of helicopters often employed, and it also means you spendt cash to make him spend cash, which puts you in the exact same situation you were in before, except you both got an extra set of units, and his AA units can actually be used to cover an attack, thus nullifying any potential air support you could give your troops, rendering an entire class of units worthless in the operational area.

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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby M551OP » Sat 7 Apr 2012 17:26

Tordin Varglund wrote:Hell its not even like you need more than 2-3 long range platforms to almost completely negate their effect, and your example is flawed, because while he (may) have to spend money to counter your air units, many AA units are cheaper than the kind of helicopters often employed, and it also means you spendt cash to make him spend cash, which puts you in the exact same situation you were in before, except you both got an extra set of units, and his AA units can actually be used to cover an attack, thus nullifying any potential air support you could give your troops, rendering an entire class of units worthless in the operational area.

2-3 long range AA platforms costs 200+ deployment points, conpared to 165 for the most expensive helicopter in the game. Quite an efficient way of reducing enemy combat capability, especially consdiering your helciotper can get a few kills anyway. Enemy air units can also be killed.

Look, the two games I've played today, I've used three Mi-28 Havocs, and despite the presence of lots of enemy air (at times 4 pieces vs 1 helo of mine), I have successfully killed enemy heavy tanks and even enemy AA. The two havocs I used in my first game killed 10 120+ NATO tanks, two command vehicles and 4 Flakpanzer Gepard AIs between them. In my second game the one havoc I used killed 4 Flakpanzer Gepard AIs, 3 M1A1s and a lot of other vehicle before it was eventually shot down by a stinger (hidden short range AA is way better than long range AA). In both of these games the enemy had significant amounts of long-range AA in the form of Chapparels, but both times they only shot down my recon helos because I play smart like that. Mi-9s are expensive but not as expensive as havocs.

This is quite a balanced game and if an entire unit class is performing badly it's because you aren't good enough at using it. There are some bad units in this game, but there is no entire class of units that is useless like you are proclaiming.

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Soyaman
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby Soyaman » Sat 7 Apr 2012 17:30

Tordin Varglund wrote:
brogan123 wrote:
Tordin Varglund wrote:If you are able to use helicopters effectively then thats more the fault of you opponent than you doing it right.

AA outranges helicopters by such a huge margin they are more or less useless outside of the very start of the game when units are still setting up. After the initial setup, any decent player will have no issues at all dealing with any amount of air units.

There are no useless categories of unit in this game. If the enemy has no AA, helicopters become very effective. If the enemy buys AA, your helicopter has just been extremely effective because that's money he isn't spending on defending against your push.


Helis are the easiest units to kill off in the entire game. Hell its not even like you need more than 2-3 long range platforms to almost completely negate their effect, and your example is flawed, because while he (may) have to spend money to counter your air units, many AA units are cheaper than the kind of helicopters often employed, and it also means you spendt cash to make him spend cash, which puts you in the exact same situation you were in before, except you both got an extra set of units, and his AA units can actually be used to cover an attack, thus nullifying any potential air support you could give your troops, rendering an entire class of units worthless in the operational area.


I agree, Air units are useless eventually.
However deploying infantry with air units doesn't has any weakness to AA unless you suck deploying them, and do it in the middle of a combat zone.

Also if you use air units as a defense, instead of offence I can promise you, they're much more effective.
If you send an ATGM helicopter to your friend's frontlines while he's being swarmed by tanks, chances of the enemy getting AA through that is very small.
I'm not saying I ONLY use Air Units, but you're suggesting that Air Units as a whole is useless. Which is wrong. They're great for moving around the map quickly, etc.

It's easier to spend money on helicopters in the beginning of the map, capture a Reinforcement zone somewhere in the middle of the map, take out the enemy's first wave of tanks, and call in units to deal with the AA they've called in due to their high loss of tanks.
So yes, Using air units is very difficult, and often dumb. But I've seen other players use them extremely effectively which makes me kinda jealous of how I use them myself.
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby Tordin Varglund » Sat 7 Apr 2012 18:43

I never said air units were useless, but your example again proves why you are wrong.

3 Havocs would put a smile on my face if i were facing you. Chaparrals down them easily enough, and far beyond a range they can engage at. Im sorry but you are falling on your own sword when you start talking about how expensive AA is, then counter with an example using 3 helicopters costing almost a third of a normal games starting point. Its as pointless as going with more than one squad of tube arty.

I can get 14 Chaparrals for your 3 helicopters, and i will guarantee you, not a single attack by them would result in anything but you losing a chopper or two, and the best part, i would have to be a moron to get anything close to 14 Chaparrals. The most ive ever fielded in my starting lineup is 3, and that was once.

They do have their uses as transports, certainly, but the problem is that they are way to easy to spot and shoot down to use them as a general means. Helicopters, outside of stuff with rocket pods are very, very niche and situational. Far too situational to be relied upon to be a significant part of your composition. Just getting ordinary infantry in fast APCs is much more cost effective 99% of the time.

Again, this doesnt mean they are useless, but anyone trying to say that they are able to use their helicopters to great use, every time, every game in every situation is simply put, wrong.

A rocket pod here or there? Sure. 3 Havocs/Apaches in anything but a lolgame is retarded.

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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby Space » Sat 7 Apr 2012 19:33

Attacking with a large group of helis is heli spam. Using airborne infantry is different and really I would class them as ground units apart from the useful M-17 which you can get with Pact infantry - but you could never win a game by going airborne infantry only. Air recon is also a very useful unit and every player should have at least one at the start. The only other useful helis in my experience are the Havok and the Apache, and I only ever tend to use one - I use them for sneaky sniping and to defend against breakthrough forces, but you need to know how to use them or you will lose a lot of money fast.

I realise that you are saying that you and your friends split tasks and you go for the air role. Personally I don't think that splitting tasks so drastically is the best way - it's your communication that is winning the game, not your split tasks. If you all had balanced forces and simply helped each other when necessary, then I think you would find that to be more effective. For example playing against competent players, if you was pushed at two points at once on opposite sides of the map, then I think you would struggle to hold that off. Another example - I would hate to have the job and deploying and positioning all those airborne infantry at the start of the game in multiple positions - unloading and positioning airborne infantry is a situation where seconds can mean the difference between success and failure ( a competent enemy will be doing the same as you in the same positions) - having the whole team responsible for that in their own areas is better.

I'm not saying that players shouldn't have specialisations - theres nothing wrong with someone being slightly more arty heavy for example, but they should still have a ground army and be fighting at the front.

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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby Space » Fri 13 Apr 2012 13:05

Maybe a new one to add after the patch? :

'High end tanks are not invincible'

They are alot more powerful now, but they are still worth loads of points and easily defeated if you are not careful :evil:

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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby Space » Thu 19 Apr 2012 15:48

4 more points added. Grrrr Noobs!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby bluntobj » Thu 19 Apr 2012 17:13

Good points space. What were the new ones you added?

Also, fun play with you last night. Like I said, your lulz play is better than most serious play (including mine).

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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby Tugboat » Thu 19 Apr 2012 18:56

It may have been said. But don't be afraid to save a few hundred points to counter whatever the enemy is doing. The exact amount depends on various factors. Like the map, number of players and point settings.

Find the enemies weakness and press it with a counter.
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