Reconnaissance aircraft Suggestion.

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trotskygrad
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Re: Reconnaissance aircraft Suggestion.

Postby trotskygrad » Wed 15 May 2013 02:35

orcbuster wrote:well they can spot other aircraft but not much else. Oh unless you mean units that are firing upon them, thats generally considered a bad thing though.


well we're talking about ground reconnaissance now are we?
NEXT TIME I SEE A DAMN FLAMEWAR INVOLVING DARTH-LAMPSHADE, FROSTPOOKY, LONERIFLE, FADE2GRAY, TROTSKYGRAD AND/OR ANYONE INVOLVED IN A DISCUSSION BETWEEN THEM I'M GOING TO HAND OUT BANS TO ANYONE USING ANYTHING LOOKING REMOTELY LIKE AN AD-HOMINEM

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Re: Reconnaissance aircraft Suggestion.

Postby GermanAAGun » Wed 15 May 2013 02:48

Phoenix wrote:
orcbuster wrote:well they can spot other aircraft but not much else. Oh unless you mean units that are firing upon them, thats generally considered a bad thing though.


"dude let's use our planes to spot enemy AA and shoot it."
"You gotta be me."

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Re: Reconnaissance aircraft Suggestion.

Postby Chesnok » Wed 15 May 2013 03:05

^ 8-)

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Re: Reconnaissance aircraft Suggestion.

Postby Leon026 » Wed 15 May 2013 06:57

Oh. This topic again.


Leon026 wrote:
grimreffer2 wrote:Note: Some of these Are battlefield Recon, some are radar, and some are picture. Not all are from Cold War. But I'm making a point here, that They used Battlefield recon during cold war, and still use it today.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/255/a/2/A_50_Radiolocation_Recon_Plane_by_KYPMbangi.jpg

http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2012/06/6314373143_b953b5655b_b-635x357.jpg

http://images.defensetech.org/images/EQG_ewe8c_2.jpg

AC-130 has been used as a Battlefield Recon, aswell as Battlefield support.http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/usaf/ac-130-gunship.jpg

http://img.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3050/medium/Nimrod-DefenceTalk.com0.jpg

Please read under Picture, it clearly states "NATO reconnaissance aircraft"http://www.superstock.com/stock-photos-images/1848-139435

http://files.myopera.com/ashja1/blog/21.jpg


None of these afforementioned examples provide company, or battalion-level tactical intelligence. They provide divisional or corps-level operational intelligence, of which the result is in my post here: viewtopic.php?f=91&t=27449&start=10#p192145 , which people have somehow moved past.

The electronic intelligence assets you posted, AWACS, Nimrod, provide intelligence on enemy air movement (helicopters, air assets). They DO NOT provide battalion-tactical intelligence of where tanks and artillery are located.

The job of battlefield tactical intelligence comes in 4 formats. These are usually at the brigade-level, and actionable intel is handed down to battalion commanders.

RADINT (Radar Intelligence) - ie. RASIT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RASIT)
IMINT (Imagery Intelligence) - ie UAV, Kiowa Warrior
HUMINT (Human Intelligence) - ie 13e RDP, Hussards, SAS
SIGINT (Signals Intelligence) - ie intercepting radio chatter



Leon026 wrote:Because spy planes dont provide battalion-level tactical intelligence. Thats what helicopters are for (and even then...).

You also have to bear in mind that in the 80s and 70s, a U-2 or SR-71 didn't have the capability to mount a real-time high magnification camera to be used by a company commander like a modern one would use from a Hawk or Predator drone.

Planes engaging in reconnaissance flights would fly over a specific area, take pictures, get the hell out, and then the pictures would be processed/analyzed by military intelligence, and then handed out to various J2, G2, and B2 intelligence cells to be compiled into the Annex B of an Operation Order to be handed out by the Brigade commander, followed by battalion commander. In those days, the most important type intelligence that could/would be gathered from recon flights would be the presence of corps-level artillery (BM-30 Smerch, SCUDs, for example), and mass armored movement.

Basically, all you'd get out of it at a useable level of an Operation Order (at the divisional level) would be something along the lines of:

ENY
31(RUS) Guards TK DIV reinforced with ADA-SAM and CORPS level ARTY, positioned along XYZ River
42 (RUS) MTZ INF DIV reinforced by a battery of BM-21 MLRS and 363 (RUS) Guards TK BAT, south of 31 (RUS) TK DIV
45 (RUS) TK DIV in reserve, reinforced by 54 (CZ) ENG BAT.

ACOA1 - Enemy will attempt to conduct a delaying maneuver....blablabla *insert paragraph detailing potential enemy action*.
ACOA2 - Enemy will attempt a defense in depth action followed by a counter-attack using the 45 (RUS) TK DIV....blablabla *insert paragraph detailing potential enemy action*.

(mega simplified watered-down format)

At the brigade level, since you're fighting one division on your front, would be transferred in turn into something like...

"Facing us, the 31(RUS)Guards TK DIV across the XYZ River.

The 31(RUS)Guards TK DIV consists of:

311(RUS)Guards TK BDE, with support from the 3112(RUS)Engineer BAT
312(RUS)Guards TK BDE, with support from the 3113(RUS)Engineer BAT
313(RUS)Guards TK BDE
314(RUS)Guards MECH INF BDE in 2nd echelon
1124(RUS) ADA BAT equipped with SA-6
5 (RUS) CORPS ARTY assets of 511 (RUS) ARTY BAT with BM-30 MLRS.


and so on and so on until you reach the company level.




I also confirmed this at work with a 3D/Joint Fires coordinator of a battalion-size battlegroup. Individual company leaders do NOT have contact with an aircraft (F-15, F-16, A-10). The only person that has contact with an aircraft is the FAC. Platoon and Company leaders however MAY benefit from direct contact with a helicopter that is attached to their AOO.

^ The above ONLY applies to modern TACP/Joint Fires procedures post-2003.

For further reading on Joint Fires Coordination, see JP 3-09.

Annex B of a brigade-level Operation Order also does not include air force assets, because a brigade-level Operation Order only concerns those ground forces. In Wargame, we are playing at Battalion/Company level. 10v10, can be considered to be Brigade level.
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