Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

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Mitchverr
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby Mitchverr » Thu 16 May 2013 16:20

stray cat wrote:Wrong. Hellfire missiles are F&F.

Againt this proves that lack of experience causes wrong assumptions about game balance.


You really need to stop saying its lack of skill as an arguement, 9/10 times you say it from what i see your wrong, horrifically wrong, basing this off your own personal exp of the game and not that of the overal playerbase for example here.

F&F means nothing if your opponent has a scout and AA system, or when that heli fires and lights itself up to be locked on and brought down near instantly, i have played for 90 hours or so, i have won 80% of my games at least playing nato and pact, am i 1 of those "learn 2 play" people? Theres a reason i wont use helis apart from when i know the eenmy aa isnt there as its a bad player, because they come down very easily right now due to the spam to stop planes and being very effective assets from using them myself to bring down helis.

stray cat wrote:Your AA is dead before attacking me



As for this, well, how can 1 possibly argue against this, as its just an obviously bad argument in my view.
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby ArkHam330 » Thu 16 May 2013 16:45

stray cat wrote:Your AA is dead before attacking me


I think you are actually just a child and won't even bother and try to answer anymore. Yermo is right on everything he said.

You can't outrange pact AA with choppers, period.
Last edited by Shifu on Mon 27 May 2013 15:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby iMolestCats » Thu 16 May 2013 17:12

ArkHam330 wrote:
stray cat wrote:Your AA is dead before attacking me


I think you are actually just a child and won't even bother and try to answer anymore. Yermo is right on everything he said.


Probably is, you can usually find him in chat ranting on about stuff he doesn't know the first thing about.
Last edited by Shifu on Mon 27 May 2013 15:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby SusScrofa » Thu 16 May 2013 17:23

ArkHam330 wrote:Yeah I know it's pretty straight forward, and the subject has already been reported countless times. But as we all saw with the BMPT / Buratino issue, you have to repeat yourself to actually have some results.

So, here we go again :

- Please do un-nerf cluster bombs: It was one of the only efficient weapons left to NATO against PACT armors. The nerf was just not necessary, as a matter of fact, CB were not signaled as a problem by the community, were them ? If this nerf had been followed by a necessary buff of ATGM planes it would have been understandable: cluster to counter light vehicules and ATGM for tanks, but it wasn't followed by such a buff, and it greaves NATO supposed air superiority that our friends of the "L2P Club" always citate as the way to counter T80's.

- Please do un-nerf SEAD planes: Why on earth would you want to nerf SEAD ? Once again, it just advantages PACT ! Now the Raven misses nearly 50% of the time. And once again, did anybody complain about Wild Weasels ? No, because it was a balance (I wouldn't go as far as to say a sufficient balance) against PACT OP AA.

Thank you for your attention good peoples.


Yup. I would say especially regarding cluster bombs.
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby OmikronAnubis » Thu 16 May 2013 18:07

Yermo wrote:
OmikronAnubis wrote:own blabla


Yeah because Pact only advance in rush, that's right.

Stop playing against AI or noob players, THEN come to the forum and comment !

A good Pact player will advance carefully : destroy the ATGM vehicles with arti (yes stray cat, I know, I'm a moron cause I had to anticipate where the arti would fall and move my vehicles) or even a Buratino, then send his heavy tanks and of course his recon covered by some AA ! So your little AH64 will more likely be destroyed before getting in range !

So noooow you could use some damn planes, but guess what ? Your damn A10/Hornet/whatever will fire 1 missile at the first run, then get shot down by the AA, your clusters planes are useless and all you can do is "Defend in depth" !


And who said that i play just against noobs/AI? I had several games where it was just hopeless against pact(especially ussr ofc) with minor nato nations while my own Antiair had so low range i cant even shoot down their damn recon-helicopters (Norway) :roll:
And even IF i would play just against noobs and/or AI i still would have the right to comment here... :roll:

Good pact player which know what to do are in fact really hard to stop, its also not all about "place ATGM in forrests and move them after every shoot (which wont work)" and "use helos as super-kill-em-all-units".
As is was mentioned in another topic you have to think more as nato than you have to as pact and yes, there is in fact an imbalance. But you guys dont seem to see the whole game. As minor pact states you dont have T64 and T80 derivates, which are the mainproblem for most nato-nations i guess. Would it be fair to improve the cluster bombs again to allow nato to kill dozens of tanks from small pact states with just one run? I bet you would like that. In the same turn you would allow the sovietunion to crush minor nato-nations even easier again. The Nato isnt the only side who can use cluster-bombs and sead planes, even while sead tend to be more usefull in nato decks. Nerfing SEAD was a buff for radar-AA. West-Germany for example is mostly made of radar-guided Antiair as you should know. Its a buff for them.
And its equal if you use your raven or wild weasle or whatever as selfmorddrone before or after the "nerf". If you dont use it wisely you will loose it, either way. If you dont kill the AA in this run, you will do it next time.

I do not doubt that many of you have played plenty of games as nato, and im pretty sure several also have played as soviet. I do also not doubt, that you have played against strong soviet commander, but in my humblest opinion you do not look far enough if you call for the "bring it back". The clusterbomb- and seadplane rebalance is in fact mostly a buff for minor nations from both sides, because these are the guys with the weaker tanks (besides FRG). Of course it makes killing T-80U's harder but clusterbombs are manly meant to be used against soft targets (or lightly armored). Im pretty sure that Eugen will change other things to make killing t-80u's easier again, but SEAD and clusterbombs are not the way this will be done. :roll:
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby D-M » Thu 16 May 2013 18:16

As a reminder, only low&mid tier SEAD planes (Jaguar, Prowler, F4 WW, Su22m4) got nerfed (and just in range, not precision), the Raven is still the same as before so there is no "The Raven isn't worths its points anymore".

It just never was. 8-)
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby Mako » Fri 17 May 2013 00:53

Every time I recoil mentally to a post, I check the user and unfailingly see stray_cat : :roll:

OT: Agreed, or as suggested elsewhere at least switch AGM and CB ranges, its silly that bombs go further.
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby Mako » Fri 17 May 2013 00:57

Bryan wrote:With the assortment of AA ingame, SEAD runs have been useless as you just lose more points than you actually gain. Clusterbombs should kill infantry and light vehicles, damage against tanks should not me so much but it should stun more.
Straycat is a [...], he flames every thread about these topics, even my thread about West German AA which EVEN MADMAT AGREED should be buffed (and was!). The A-10 thread and other threads aswell. He has no idea how the situation is for the nations yet he 'knows' it all, funny how he is wrong most of the time. Guys take my advice, dont feed the trolls.


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Last edited by Shifu on Mon 27 May 2013 15:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby Hidden Gunman » Fri 17 May 2013 05:25

Mako wrote:EUGENE KNOWS BEST

better than themselves apparently...


Well, the cluster situation has deteriorated to the point that the top tier tanks are now hunting in packs.

Repeatedly in games over the last 24 hours I've seen units of 3 or 4 Leo 2A4s, M1A1's, T80OU's and V's trundling around with minimal anti-air support. I've hit them with cluster strikes, hey, that's what the expensive plane carrying big cluster bombs is for, right? Well, jack didlly is what happens...

We now have a situation where a game-designed aircraft can no longer carry out the role that the developers intended for it...with the onflow that the tanks that it was intended to kill are now impervious to it and are hunting in packs, cluster-f***ed together like greek phalanx, and the 180 point aircraft which should make you pay for that has now been relegated to truck bombing. Sure...I could use 3 or 4 of those 180 point bombers to hit that bunch of tanks...or I could not give in to developer imposed spam builds.

What has happened now is that it is even more viable/necessary to play team games with an air spammer, or to bring along a bunch of big heavy top tier tanks yourself.

Is this what the developers intended? Honestly, there are consequences to this sort of design decision...now we have air and heavy tank spamming...why did you even bother to develope WALB, you could have simply rebadged WEE with a couple of changes.
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby trotskygrad » Fri 17 May 2013 05:47

Hidden Gunman wrote:
Mako wrote:EUGENE KNOWS BEST

better than themselves apparently...


Well, the cluster situation has deteriorated to the point that the top tier tanks are now hunting in packs.

Repeatedly in games over the last 24 hours I've seen units of 3 or 4 Leo 2A4s, M1A1's, T80OU's and V's trundling around with minimal anti-air support. I've hit them with cluster strikes, hey, that's what the expensive plane carrying big cluster bombs is for, right? Well, jack didlly is what happens...

We now have a situation where a game-designed aircraft can no longer carry out the role that the developers intended for it...with the onflow that the tanks that it was intended to kill are now impervious to it and are hunting in packs, cluster-f***ed together like greek phalanx, and the 180 point aircraft which should make you pay for that has now been relegated to truck bombing. Sure...I could use 3 or 4 of those 180 point bombers to hit that bunch of tanks...or I could not give in to developer imposed spam builds.

What has happened now is that it is even more viable/necessary to play team games with an air spammer, or to bring along a bunch of big heavy top tier tanks yourself.

Is this what the developers intended? Honestly, there are consequences to this sort of design decision...now we have air and heavy tank spamming...why did you even bother to develope WALB, you could have simply rebadged WEE with a couple of changes.


maybe use AGM planes? :?

We need more types of cluster bombs to prevent both air and heavy tank spam.

The problems with clusters in the earlier meta was that people would spam cheap bombers to take out heavy tanks, even if they lost the bombers they would get a point profit.

We need less powerful clusters on cheaper bombers for IFVs and the like. More expensive bombs on better bombers (British Tornado works excellent, we need more planes like that) that can tackle heavy tanks.

This prevents bomber spam and heavy tank spam.
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