Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

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chrisnz
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby chrisnz » Fri 17 May 2013 05:55

Why would you say buff cluster bombs and not a2g missiles?
"I ask her is it true and she sais like a horse shoe."

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trotskygrad
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby trotskygrad » Fri 17 May 2013 05:57

chrisnz wrote:Why would you say buff cluster bombs and not a2g missiles?


because heavy cluster bombs should be effective.
NEXT TIME I SEE A DAMN FLAMEWAR INVOLVING DARTH-LAMPSHADE, FROSTPOOKY, LONERIFLE, FADE2GRAY, TROTSKYGRAD AND/OR ANYONE INVOLVED IN A DISCUSSION BETWEEN THEM I'M GOING TO HAND OUT BANS TO ANYONE USING ANYTHING LOOKING REMOTELY LIKE AN AD-HOMINEM

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Hidden Gunman
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby Hidden Gunman » Fri 17 May 2013 06:01

trotskygrad wrote:
Hidden Gunman wrote:
Mako wrote:

maybe use AGM planes? :?


Yes, I could use precision guided munitions, but there is an expensive aircraft specifically capable of hitting 'massed' targets, which was, in fact, provided by the developers.

That's the point.

Those cluster bombers are intended to tackle bunched targets...

So, what we have is a situation where good gameplay by someone who can get X cluster bomber to conduct a successful strike against a player who has intentionally massed their top tier tanks, derives no benefit from their good gameplay...

Here's a little example:

This morning I was playing on the Gavle map, and one of my opponents sent a massed mob of vehicles, including Leo2A4s across the little bridges out on the flank...I hit them with a Mig29, and took out a couple of light vehs. Didn't even seem to worry the tanks. Perfect strike, perfect target for a top of the line cluster bomber...but I might as well have had a CV on the ridge above them trying to p*ss them away...
A Firefly killed Wittman...

It's a 17lbr, not a 76.2mm.

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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby Gopblin » Fri 17 May 2013 06:13

Guys, seriously - read the forum, do some tests privately before whining, or at the very least CLICK the enemy tanks and see what effects your strike had.

Here are the results of tests I posted in a couple forum threads after the last patch:
2*500kg cluster bombs do the damage equal to 6 minus target's top armor.

What this means is e.g. Mig21 hitting M1A1 or Chally will do 2 damage (6 - 4)
OTOH, Starfighter hitting a T80U or T64BV will do 6 damage (6-3)*(times two cause it carries four bombs)

In fact, the last nerf benefited NATO hugely as now PACT needs to hit NATO heavies with 5 airstrikes for 300 points (5 mig21), while NATO needs to hit PACT heavies with 2 airstrikes for 160 points (2 Starfighter, Jaguar A1).

At least learn how something works before whining about it.

Best wishes,
Daniel.
Nationality? - Russian.
Occupation? - No, no, just visiting.

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chrisnz
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby chrisnz » Fri 17 May 2013 06:54

trotskygrad wrote:
chrisnz wrote:Why would you say buff cluster bombs and not a2g missiles?


because heavy cluster bombs should be effective.


Should they? Well i guess they should have less range then a missile too...
"I ask her is it true and she sais like a horse shoe."

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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby Hidden Gunman » Fri 17 May 2013 07:35

Gopblin wrote:Guys, seriously - read the forum, do some tests privately before whining, or at the very least CLICK the enemy tanks and see what effects your strike had.

Here are the results of tests I posted in a couple forum threads after the last patch:
2*500kg cluster bombs do the damage equal to 6 minus target's top armor.

What this means is e.g. Mig21 hitting M1A1 or Chally will do 2 damage (6 - 4)
OTOH, Starfighter hitting a T80U or T64BV will do 6 damage (6-3)*(times two cause it carries four bombs)

In fact, the last nerf benefited NATO hugely as now PACT needs to hit NATO heavies with 5 airstrikes for 300 points (5 mig21), while NATO needs to hit PACT heavies with 2 airstrikes for 160 points (2 Starfighter, Jaguar A1).

At least learn how something works before whining about it.

Best wishes,
Daniel.


Okay, so based on this, I have to hit heavy tanks with two or three mig29ms, to do kill the tank/s?

Nice, so as I said, we are forced to spam aircraft, and we can bunch our heavy tanks into rolling treads of death ala 1942...
A Firefly killed Wittman...

It's a 17lbr, not a 76.2mm.

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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby Gopblin » Fri 17 May 2013 08:43

Hidden Gunman wrote:Okay, so based on this, I have to hit heavy tanks with two or three mig29ms, to do kill the tank/s?

Nice, so as I said, we are forced to spam aircraft, and we can bunch our heavy tanks into rolling treads of death ala 1942...


Yeah, a Mig29 will do 4 dmg to Abrams or Chally (4 top armor) and 6 dmg to Leo2 (3 top armor).

I don't have a problem with it, do you really expect 115 point highly mobile asset to oneshot ~600 points worth of tanks? What next, tactical nukes for 50 pts?

You can still clusterstomp tank blobs, especially as NATO, but now it requires a noticeable point investment.

Best wishes,
Daniel
Nationality? - Russian.
Occupation? - No, no, just visiting.

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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby dimitri18 » Fri 17 May 2013 08:49

ArkHam330 wrote:Yeah I know it's pretty straight forward, and the subject has already been reported countless times. But as we all saw with the BMPT / Buratino issue, you have to repeat yourself to actually have some results.

So, here we go again :

- Please do un-nerf cluster bombs: It was one of the only efficient weapons left to NATO against PACT armors. The nerf was just not necessary, as a matter of fact, CB were not signaled as a problem by the community, were them ? If this nerf had been followed by a necessary buff of ATGM planes it would have been understandable: cluster to counter light vehicules and ATGM for tanks, but it wasn't followed by such a buff, and it greaves NATO supposed air superiority that our friends of the "L2P Club" always citate as the way to counter T80's.

- Please do un-nerf SEAD planes: Why on earth would you want to nerf SEAD ? Once again, it just advantages PACT ! Now the Raven misses nearly 50% of the time. And once again, did anybody complain about Wild Weasels ? No, because it was a balance (I wouldn't go as far as to say a sufficient balance) against PACT OP AA.

Thank you for your attention good peoples.


>Implying you're not just a - that has no idea how to play

go back to red alert.
Last edited by Shifu on Mon 27 May 2013 15:25, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: language

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ArkHam330
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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby ArkHam330 » Fri 17 May 2013 09:06

That was a usefull and constructive post. Thank you for your participation ;)

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Re: Un-nerf SEAD and Cluster

Postby ageezus » Fri 17 May 2013 09:11

I don't know anyone that runs Radar AA anymore. I transitioned all my AA to IR missiles weeks ago.
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