nerf air

iwancoppa
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nerf air

Postby iwancoppa » Wed 22 May 2013 01:35

Since the aa nerf, ground based aa, even in large numbers is now an unreliable way to defend against air attacks. Air spammers are rejoicing and telling people to use fighters etc.....


This is great except bombers will have evac'd before you can even get a figher there. On some maps it xan take 30s for a fighter to spawn in and get to the front line. Therefore I have 3 options for a fix.

A. Double the spot range of all aircraft to peovide a reasonable chance of getting a fighter there in time
B. Make aircraft vulnerabke to a2a missiles for a further 5-10s after evac
C. Double fighter fuel capacity to make loitering viable


I don't want air to be useless. I just want consequences for mass bomber spam without fighter escort.
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." -Euripides
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Grazgul
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Re: (suggestion) increase aircraft visibility

Postby Grazgul » Wed 22 May 2013 02:08

If they are spamming air then it his highly unlikely that the have sufficient AA or ground forces.

Air spamming is not the viable option people think it is and it doesn't need to be balanced.
Keep in mind this is only from playing about 10-15 games last night and of those only about 5 or so had idiots running "air" decks so I think the tactics are relatively untested.

4 ways I found to very easily counter stacked bomber runs.

1. AAA at the very front lines (just behind your main battle lines). These serve a few purposes.
    They can have radars, which soak up SEAD missiles
    Likely to stun and rout ground attack aircraft and about half the time cause aircarft to be routed or stunned before dropping their payload
2. Man pads
    Ninja manpads are highly effective if you can get them forward enough.
    Spread them out. A single manpad looks like a Chaparral or Strela. The enemy will send cluster bombers and not hit a damn thing
3. Interceptors
    The might seem to be useless, but they are not. Sure you might not get to the aircraft before they drop their bombs, but bombers need 2-3 runs to become cost effective. Make sure you whittle down their bombers, stack interceptors on a single bomber if you have more then one, guaranteeing a kill.
    DO NOT LOSE YOUR INTERCEPTORS, NEVER SEND THEM OUT TO DIE. They are worth their weight in gold late game
4. SPREAD OUT!
    You are almost never going to see a strong ground attack from an air heavy opponent. split all your battle groups into single units and dig in. Separate your IFV/APC and put your infantry in buildings. Heavy air play will score hits and kills, but if your spread out they won't get alot. Keep in mind good ECM aircraft are worth 100+ points.

The name of the game is to weather the storm. You won't have a great first 5-10 minutes but you will almost always win. The key weakness in air heavy decks is the number of aircraft they can field.
You only get 1-3 aircraft per unit slot, so whittling down the numbers is an easy way to beat them.

EDIT: As I said previously, I only had air stacking opponents half a dozen times last night. I traded at nearly 2:1 in points just about every time, sometimes going as high as 4:1!
Last edited by Grazgul on Wed 22 May 2013 02:11, edited 1 time in total.

cphoenix
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Re: nerf air

Postby cphoenix » Wed 22 May 2013 02:10

Oh for heaven's sake...*points to sig*

Understand now? It's not good enough to call in the aircraft when you see the bombers coming. It has to be in the air already.
AirLand Battle Strategy Guide

1. Have a CAP.
2. Always have a CAP.
3. If you don't have a CAP, get a CAP.

Grazgul
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Re: nerf air

Postby Grazgul » Wed 22 May 2013 02:14

cphoenix wrote:Oh for heaven's sake...*points to sig*

Understand now? It's not good enough to call in the aircraft when you see the bombers coming. It has to be in the air already.

I disagree on most 3v3 and smaller maps and especially if you don't have Air Superiority Fighters in your deck.
The problem with fighters is that they tend to be attacked and often stray into enemy AA, you need to be very vigilant. While I disagree there's nothing to stop people using a CAP efficiently and it is definitely one way to knock out enemy bombers

nimitz98
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Re: nerf air

Postby nimitz98 » Wed 22 May 2013 02:19

Grazgul wrote:
cphoenix wrote:Oh for heaven's sake...*points to sig*

Understand now? It's not good enough to call in the aircraft when you see the bombers coming. It has to be in the air already.

I disagree on most 3v3 and smaller maps and especially if you don't have Air Superiority Fighters in your deck.
The problem with fighters is that they tend to be attacked and often stray into enemy AA, you need to be very vigilant. While I disagree there's nothing to stop people using a CAP efficiently and it is definitely one way to knock out enemy bombers

Use a MiG-31 or F-14 for your CAP. That way, they don't have to go anywhere near the front lines.
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exsonic
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Re: nerf air

Postby exsonic » Wed 22 May 2013 02:26

We need to accept it. Eugen's intention is to lead users to use aircrafts, not the air defense only rely on AA units.

As a pact user, this is tough and sad, because pact air is slightly weaker than nato counterparts. But there is no other way.

Only "air" deck is not a problem. You need to mix AA, and practice radar turn on/off control. When you really become good at turn on/off control, deal with raven and other sead will be more easy. But you really need to stay vigilant, and sometimes you need to predict the point when they will call the air.

However, when the air deck guy show really nice team work with his land unit allies, it is the nightmare. There is no way to defense those 2 ppl rush, air + land mixed attack.
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iwancoppa
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Re: nerf air

Postby iwancoppa » Wed 22 May 2013 02:48

The problem with cap is that it ties up hundreds of points and means even more to micro. Radar toggling and counterbat and dealing with sneak attacks and other housekeeping duties is already enough.
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." -Euripides
BM-30 SMERCH - unstoppable killer - please NERF
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cphoenix
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Re: nerf air

Postby cphoenix » Wed 22 May 2013 02:58

All you need to do is click once, hell, right in the deployment zone, and leave it there circling until you need it. :lol:
AirLand Battle Strategy Guide

1. Have a CAP.
2. Always have a CAP.
3. If you don't have a CAP, get a CAP.

Kingfisher
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Re: (suggestion) increase aircraft visibility

Postby Kingfisher » Wed 22 May 2013 03:03

Grazgul wrote: Sure you might not get to the aircraft before they drop their bombs, but bombers need 2-3 runs to become cost effective. Make sure you whittle down their bombers, stack interceptors on a single bomber if you have more then one, guaranteeing a kill.


Exactly! Look, bombers are expensive especially ones that have any ability to evade/sustain fire. If some guy sends 400 points of bomber at you chances are you only need to shoot down one to win the encounter, and that isn't even considering you've probably taken out 1/4 of his ground attack capability. Now add in the fact that they guy has hundreds of points of units that have just left the map for 3-5 minutes for rearming.

Fighter loiter time is currently alright, especially the long range "sniping" aircraft like the F14/MiG31.

I really don't see an issue with fighting off the 'train' unless it is some sort of cheese all-in-airforce tactic, but quite honestly if your opponent spends 15 of his activation points on aircraft you probably aren't going to shoot everything down and you should recognize that his deck is going to be massively compromised in other ways.

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Spartan0536
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Re: nerf air

Postby Spartan0536 » Wed 22 May 2013 03:05

Read up on 1980's US ground based Anti-Air tactics, they state a layered DEFENSE. You need to keep your AA sufficient distance behind friendly lines in a layered defense that puts NON-RADAR based AA forward, this will afford you the opportunity to micro your combat aircraft while leaving your AA systems on, the only way to counter this defense is to smoke out the AA which at that time TARCAP takes full precedence.

RECON Infantry
|
*IR Infantry AA
|
Non-RADAR AAA
|
Non-RADAR AA
|
RADAR-AAA
|
RADAR-AA

*Optional: use IR based AA infantry as forward point for discouraging air assets

Behind this have TARCAP aircraft on standby!
Last edited by Spartan0536 on Wed 22 May 2013 03:06, edited 1 time in total.
If your rifleman cant hit it your marksman can; if your marksman cant hit it your sniper can, if your sniper cant hit it your air/arty assets can, if your air/arty assets cant hit it then F*** that guy he isn't even concerned about you anyway!

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