Battle time limit needs adjusting!

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Lorik Eolmin
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Re: Battle time limit needs adjusting!

Postby Lorik Eolmin » Sat 13 Jul 2013 20:46

Aha, great news DeuZerre!

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DeuZerre
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Re: Battle time limit needs adjusting!

Postby DeuZerre » Sat 13 Jul 2013 21:05

Don't expect it too fast, it's buggy as hell :lol:
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Re: Battle time limit needs adjusting!

Postby Lorik Eolmin » Sat 13 Jul 2013 21:12

All right, I have a life to live in the mean time, and Brave New World is out :P

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Re: Battle time limit needs adjusting!

Postby Kraxis » Sun 14 Jul 2013 13:33

TheFunnyOne1125 wrote:You say 20 min is not enough for you to be able to attack. But the defender is going to have just as much time to gather his forces. You have trouble attacking in 20 mins against a defensive force that has built up HIS force for 20mins also.

Your attack is just going to be that much harder to execute. The enemy is going to have a huge force now. You had trouble attacking him before. How much trouble do you think your going to have now?

For a player such as yourself, you would be making it worse on both ends. You would now make it harder for yourself to attack. And as a defensive player your not going to be aggressive as a defensive Ai. You will try to gather your defence in 30min. Then the A.i will poop on you with a huge gathered force.

So first we need to wait to see how the campaign update changes things. And then we need to discuss if there needs to be an increase in time limit. Which im sure there still won't need to be.

So because I failed in the first attack I can't respond with better tactics next time? Could it possibly be that the large map and little time forced me to do the old 'fast but dumb' move? Moving to a good position 'one bridge too far'. As it is, as the attacker on large maps you have to pick one target and gun for it. If you run into a disadvantaged meeting engagement, due to the enemy holding better positions or similar, you will lose that fight, or rather more likely draw it (but lose it strategically as you are now effectively stopped). More time means that I now have a better understanding of the enemy's forces, his avenues of movement and naturally what failed.
I can't overpower him, that much is certain, but I can bleed him for a victory, I just need the forces for that, and the time to send them out.
You can just about do this on the smaller maps. I have won a lot of battles with 5-20 seconds left after fouling my first attack. Heck I have experienced that even as defender (though the income disparity does make up for that to a significant extent).

Also if all it takes is one engagement, then why not reduce the battle to one engagement? That is effectively what you say. You lose the first fight, why do you expect that you can win so don't bother. That's shallow honestly.

Now I expect the incoming changes to help a lot in regards to the horrible draws. What other changes there are, well I hope they help in other regards as well (technically by making draws less horrendous, the short battles will get helped to an extent). But until we have those changes we can't just sit back and regard everything as fine. Eugen are nice, but the short time until the fix has been a while now. Presumably they ran into issues a few weeks ago going by the testers' comments, but that can continue for an uncertain time (regardless of their hope for getting the patch out late next week).
Since we have absolutely no idea what the changes actually contain, we can't act as if we already have those changes, and they fix our most important issues. Once they are out, it is right to halt complaints and suggestions about issues that are fixed, but not before. I'm a little surprised at that willingness.
And right now, my game still plays exactly the same as before, so my concerns remains the same, even if I hope, and expect that the changes will indeed improve the experience.
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Re: Battle time limit needs adjusting!

Postby TheFunnyOne1125 » Sun 14 Jul 2013 21:39

Kraxis wrote:
TheFunnyOne1125 wrote:You say 20 min is not enough for you to be able to attack. But the defender is going to have just as much time to gather his forces. You have trouble attacking in 20 mins against a defensive force that has built up HIS force for 20mins also.

Your attack is just going to be that much harder to execute. The enemy is going to have a huge force now. You had trouble attacking him before. How much trouble do you think your going to have now?

For a player such as yourself, you would be making it worse on both ends. You would now make it harder for yourself to attack. And as a defensive player your not going to be aggressive as a defensive Ai. You will try to gather your defence in 30min. Then the A.i will poop on you with a huge gathered force.

So first we need to wait to see how the campaign update changes things. And then we need to discuss if there needs to be an increase in time limit. Which im sure there still won't need to be.


Also if all it takes is one engagement, then why not reduce the battle to one engagement? That is effectively what you say. You lose the first fight, why do you expect that you can win so don't bother. That's shallow honestly.


I was actually talking about you inability to form an effective attack. Just one successful attack. I'm not talking about winning the whole battle. Nor the "Engagement" just your inability to form an attack. Which it seems you have trouble with. If you suck at attacking in 20 mins, then why bother with 40 mins? That's what I was saying.

Just to clear up your misunderstanding. :geek:

An effective commander makes use of what forces hes got. I don't want a last 10 mins of a R.U.S.E. game type slog fest. This game requires you to use your forces, what little and diverse they may be. And use them to there maximum effectiveness. Nobody wants to see a train roll in the last minutes of the game. Then it will come to whos got the bigger force, cluster F&%k.

Certain battalions WILL get rolled over.
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Re: Battle time limit needs adjusting!

Postby Kraxis » Sun 14 Jul 2013 22:27

No, I don't really have trouble with it. Sometimes I flounder because I make a mistake, but one initial mistake shouldn't be unrecoverable. Generally I just get caught in what could be called a slugging match rather than losing my forces (that was why I mentioned a draw). They do suffer losses of course.
That's with the heavy brigades.
What it seems you fail to understand is that maps such as Stavanger (not the MP version) really don't offer you much chance to reinforce your forces. It can literally end at a time with your forces strung out all across the map.
It is absolutely huge if you end up in a chase of the enemy. And it is far from the only map where in effect you only have the initial forces outside choppers and planes.

Of course some brigades end up getting trounced at times. Facing an Independent Tank Brigade with a force of Swedish Militia is not exactly going to be pretty, and only somewhat better with a French marine/recon force. And I don't mind that.
But what I do mind is that some maps are so large that the AI can at times bungle around doing nothing for the entire time. Or you can end up running a chasing game that teases you with a killcount that is just outside ending the battle once it draws. Or the fact that most maps do not allow for seesaw action as both sides sees a gain-lose-regain fight over a position. And more like this.

None of them are not solved by extending the battle by 10 minutes, but it helps a lot. The more important fixes would be something else in each case, like smaller maps (but that is not going to happen). But the rather significant size difference between maps leads to battles where the time limit is not enough to fight a satisfying battle (invariably the reason why we play at all). And satisfying does not equate winning, I'm sure most players' fondest memories have been of 'glorious defeats'.
Certainly more points one way or another is going to help, but that does not take away the inevitable gamble that are placed on you in deciding the direction of maneuver initially. And that is regardless of being defender or attacker. Pick the wrong direction and you are suddenly faced with spending half the battle moving about the map with no engagement. Tell me that is fun. In that aspect only an increased time limit will help. It won't help with winning the battle, but it will help with actually getting into a fight.

That's what I want. Meaningful battles, and the time limit certainly puts a crimp on that regardless of how much less the draws will suck later (as each following battle will end just in time to be annoying once more). More points one way or another will just increases the forces, something I would actually like, but it is a lesser point to the time limit (to me they are separate but connected issues, meaning you can't fix one and expect both to be good).

Are we talking past each other here?

If the changes make my experience great and 20 minutes will be plenty time for me to get my fix, then you won't hear another word from me. But coming from potential battles in the EE campaigns, I'm far from certain.
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Re: Battle time limit needs adjusting!

Postby Aramike » Tue 16 Jul 2013 07:08

I'm a bit of a n00b here, so forgive me for jumping in. For the most part, I think the time limit is a good idea. My problem are the drawbacks associated with having a good action interrupted because you're up against the clock.

I'd like to see this solved by having the ability to "buy" more time once each battle, with the cost taking away from your points the next engagement. I think that'd help balance it.

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Re: Battle time limit needs adjusting!

Postby DeuZerre » Tue 16 Jul 2013 08:25

This could be interesting... Like -1 additional initiative to keep the battle going.
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Re: Battle time limit needs adjusting!

Postby TheFunnyOne1125 » Tue 16 Jul 2013 09:40

Aramike wrote:I'm a bit of a n00b here, so forgive me for jumping in. For the most part, I think the time limit is a good idea. My problem are the drawbacks associated with having a good action interrupted because you're up against the clock.

I'd like to see this solved by having the ability to "buy" more time once each battle, with the cost taking away from your points the next engagement. I think that'd help balance it.


Best idea ive heard so far.

+1
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Re: Battle time limit needs adjusting!

Postby Kraxis » Tue 16 Jul 2013 14:34

That could work. Your brigade frontloads in order to finish the battle now, and will suffer if it can't win.
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