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Re: the balance

Posted: Wed 10 Jul 2013 06:45
by KillaJules
Gopblin wrote:What you mean to say is that Russia doesn't have good mortars. It certainly needs em, though.


The Vasilek works quite well for me. It might be too expensive for its range but I wouldn't say that it isn't good.

Re: the balance

Posted: Wed 10 Jul 2013 07:04
by wargamer1985
Wait....what weapon does the SU-27S have that the F-15C doesn't?

Re: the balance

Posted: Wed 10 Jul 2013 07:05
by Mako
KillaJules wrote:
Gopblin wrote:What you mean to say is that Russia doesn't have good mortars. It certainly needs em, though.


The Vasilek works quite well for me. It might be too expensive for its range but I wouldn't say that it isn't good.


Its not good compared to the alternatives.

Re: the balance

Posted: Wed 10 Jul 2013 07:30
by HEROFOX
No, it's not that I don't have counterarguments, it's because I don't think anything is getting through. The economy model in 10v10 RANDOM is completely different than what I'm talking about, as is the playing field. The meta is different, the skill, the communication, the number of units you have to worry about or take on on any given front.

Sure, some things in the game are really good, like Spetsnaz, Marder or Seahawk. Instead of acknowledging the fact that Spetsnaz are good, you talk about the most obvious ways to kill them. Good job, but that's not the type of discussion I'm looking for. Imagine if I replied right now with, "Yes, I agree the Seahawk is good, but I can kill it with a TungsukaM." Why would I want to have such a stupid discussion?

You can't compare units in a vacuum, you have to look at their function and purpose in the greater picture. How is the NATO ground game vs. USSR Nat? How is their AA? The broader picture is what's important. I don't care if you have better ATGM infantry if I have ATGM on my tanks. I don't care if you have better planes if I have a solid AA defense net who's multi-functional. The plus and minuses on both sides is what keeps factions UNIQUE, DISTINCT and FUN. This is positive game design and it's a good thing the two most popularized sides play different. Else, it would be like World in Conflict.

Also, balance is determined from the top down. That means if the best players in the game thinks balance is fine, it's probably going to remain that way. That's a hard pill to swallow for some people, but honestly, I don't care.

Re: the balance

Posted: Wed 10 Jul 2013 07:36
by TankHunter
@KillaJules: Nona's are good too, but overpriced.

*T-72M1 is referred to as "T-72" in most of the paragraph
My experience with post patch PACT armor, and pact in general(Poland and CSLA only):
1. Armor: T-72M1 Cz/Jaguar is amazing tank. Able to engage with basic Abrams head-on, and more numbers available( 3 T-72 > 2 M1). With the fact that the Abrams has to engage at 1925m is even better, with 17Ap from T-72s. Against AMX-32 and 40(I only fought the 40, fyi.) : T-72 loses in a max range fight. Once under 2100m, its more even.
Against Leo2A4: See it every game against NATO. I generally drop corrected smoke on it to flank while he can't see out of it. Supporting IFVs like BVP-1P,2, BWP-2D deal some damage. OT-810D is also great with high vet at close quarters.
T-55: Merida is amazing, 2100m 11AP for cheap. T55AM2B(CSLA) is good, able to snipe away at enemy armor behind T-72s.
T-34/85M1: Use as screen. Performs good, about as good as OT-810, but can't damage Abrams like OT-810

No use of arty, save the DANA. DANA is great, Efficient in ammo use(carries 90rds), speed is great, as well as autonomy.
2. Support:
a. Mortars: PRAM-S, 'nuff said. Used for aforementioned corrected smoke fire, to allow screening forces to close in and maybe get lucky, force enemy recon to move out of an advantageous position or into my guns, and to blind ATGM troops.
DDR-120mm mortar on MTLB: Very good as well, I believe it has better autonomy than PRAM-S.
b. AAA(Guns):
Mixed PACT is slightly better due to basic Tunguska. But national Poland/CSLA:
Praga: Very good, cheap, high availability w/vet.
STROP 1: Very good, but has low autonomy and availability.
STROP 2:Low availability.
Basic Shilka: Mediocre. Availablity needs to be 12/ 2 cards
c. SAMS
KUB-M: Needs faster aim time. Only gets 1 shot off, even with its range. Seems to be a problem along all high end NSWP SAMs. Low ACC + ammo means unlikely to hit more than once.
OSA/OSA-AK: Kinda ok.
OSA-AKM: Range is too short. In my experience , gets 1 shot off against 800km/h+ aircraft. Increase range of it and both KUB-M, or buff RoF.

Infantry/IFVs/APCs
a. IFVs: OT-62 Vydra II is very good, with 1750m range auto cannon, and good ACC(5). BVP-1P is great and cheap price. BWP-2D is good, well armored, and ok ACC(3), with a Konkurs. Not much choice here, BVP-1P, BV/WP-2 or 2D, or Czech Vydra II. I personally have bad experience with Vydra I (not II) and MTLB-23M Krak.
b.APC
OT-64A should be 10pts(BTR-60PAI should too, or just remove it,another topic), otherwise good. Basic TOPAS is cheap APC. RR TOPAS is still good, being able to hurt heavy armor. TOPAS 2AP is good, cuz KPVT :twisted: . SKOT w/MMG is weak sauce. OT-64C/SKOT-2AM is ok, although it should be 15pts because Malyutkas suck.
c. Infantry
MotorstrelCi: Bad rifle ACC, although they do stun better because of 7.62x39. Didn't check RPG-75 stats.
Piechota Zmech: Very good all around, with RPG-7 being good, and PKM also makes them good. Nice transport options.
Spados: Good, CQC with their RPK
Vyadskari: Same as above, but IDK which one has better AP for their LAW.

Recon: Czechs have a lot of exceptional recon, with BVPz and OT-65RL. Basic OT-65 is cheap and good. Poles have BRDM with KPVT(Great for SAM hunting :twisted: ) and exceptional optic Mi-2. DDR has BRM-1, BRDM, and Mi-9, as well as Ninja - Auflaker.

Logistics
a. CVs
Poles and Czechs have SKOT/OT-64 CVs aplenty, and T55K, with cheap jeep and TOPAS/OT-62 CV as well. I think Poles might have CV helo.
b. Trucks and helos
Czechs have the best trucks, and Poles/DDR have helos. tie.

Will expand on this later.

Re: the balance

Posted: Wed 10 Jul 2013 09:00
by Gyg
TankHunter wrote:MotorstrelCi: Bad rifle ACC, although they do stun better because of 7.62x39. Didn't check RPG-75 stats.

Motostrelci have quick firing and accurate low AP launcher (Acc 10 AP 12, ROF 20). It should stun enemy tanks really quick even without doing much damage. Also they have longer range on their LMG (1050m compared to 875m that most infantry have).
Spados: Good, CQC with their RPK
Vyadskari: Same as above, but IDK which one has better AP for their LAW.

Their RPG and LMG stats are identical. What is interesting that Vysadkari have better ROF for their Vz 58 than Spadochroniarze AND Motostrelci, even though Motostrelci use the same gun!
Czechs have the best trucks, and Poles/DDR have helos. tie.

Poles do have a command helo.
Fun fact: before WALB I didn't know Przetacznik is a polish word and I'm from Poland :P.