Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

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Hidden Gunman
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Re: Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

Postby Hidden Gunman » Sat 13 Jul 2013 04:14

naizarak wrote:i never understood why tanks in ALB were so powerful against infantry at close range.

most of the time, it seems that the tank spots the infantry first and gets the initial shot, which is usually decisive. really doesn't make sense that a tank would so easily spot infantry in a forest or urban environment, where the infantry would have the overwhelming advantage.

i think the metagame needs to be reworked a bit, infantry should be buffed as defensive units in CQC situations, and rolling a column of tanks through a forest or town should be suicidal. as in real life, tanks should be used for warfare on open ground across wide distances, and extremely vulnerable in confined environments. right now that's not represented very well at all


A lot of it is related to what I raised in my response to elitesniper...far too many people think it is enough just to have their infantry in forest/town, and that armour moving in on them should die. That only works consistently when the armour is moving into forest/town, from forest/town, in the manner of infantry positioning as I described. Positioning your armour, without leg units, in the same manner simply doesn't work though, not consistently at least.
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Re: Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

Postby orcbuster » Sat 13 Jul 2013 04:18

Hidden Gunman wrote:
naizarak wrote:i never understood why tanks in ALB were so powerful against infantry at close range.

most of the time, it seems that the tank spots the infantry first and gets the initial shot, which is usually decisive. really doesn't make sense that a tank would so easily spot infantry in a forest or urban environment, where the infantry would have the overwhelming advantage.

i think the metagame needs to be reworked a bit, infantry should be buffed as defensive units in CQC situations, and rolling a column of tanks through a forest or town should be suicidal. as in real life, tanks should be used for warfare on open ground across wide distances, and extremely vulnerable in confined environments. right now that's not represented very well at all


A lot of it is related to what I raised in my response to elitesniper...far too many people think it is enough just to have their infantry in forest/town, and that armour moving in on them should die. That only works consistently when the armour is moving into forest/town, from forest/town, in the manner of infantry positioning as I described. Positioning your armour, without leg units, in the same manner simply doesn't work though, not consistently at least.


my tactic against this is always to position my inf one layer in with stealthy rec inf on lookout, when the tanks/transports roll in you move them to the outer district. time it correctly and you're looking at a regular bloodbath, especially with stormere.
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Re: Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

Postby naizarak » Sat 13 Jul 2013 04:23

Hidden Gunman wrote:
naizarak wrote:i never understood why tanks in ALB were so powerful against infantry at close range.

most of the time, it seems that the tank spots the infantry first and gets the initial shot, which is usually decisive. really doesn't make sense that a tank would so easily spot infantry in a forest or urban environment, where the infantry would have the overwhelming advantage.

i think the metagame needs to be reworked a bit, infantry should be buffed as defensive units in CQC situations, and rolling a column of tanks through a forest or town should be suicidal. as in real life, tanks should be used for warfare on open ground across wide distances, and extremely vulnerable in confined environments. right now that's not represented very well at all


A lot of it is related to what I raised in my response to elitesniper...far too many people think it is enough just to have their infantry in forest/town, and that armour moving in on them should die. That only works consistently when the armour is moving into forest/town, from forest/town, in the manner of infantry positioning as I described. Positioning your armour, without leg units, in the same manner simply doesn't work though, not consistently at least.


If you were to literally roll a column of tanks through town, then they should all be destroyed.

In ALB:
- lead tank gets blown up
- every other tank in the convoy immediately spots and targets the infantry
- a massive, accurate barrage destroys or stuns the infantry, who are supposedly hidden in extreme urban cover


I think the big problem has to do with optics and reaction times. The game's formula is very basic - the closer your are to the target, the easier it is to spot and aim at. But in real life, tankers are probably less proficient in point-blank combat, especially in urban environments.

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Re: Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

Postby orcbuster » Sat 13 Jul 2013 04:26

this also depends a lot on vet levels which affects aiming time. There is a reason I always get my stormere maxed out. the speed which they destroy tanks is simply phenomenal.
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Re: Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

Postby EliteSniper » Sat 13 Jul 2013 04:28

orcbuster wrote:this also depends a lot on vet levels which affects aiming time. There is a reason I always get my stormere maxed out. the speed which they destroy tanks is simply phenomenal.


Stromere are Denmark or Norwegian infantry right?

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Re: Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

Postby orcbuster » Sat 13 Jul 2013 04:30

norwegian, but anything with a Carl gustav and high vet is a force to be reckoned with, I prefer stormere due to the SISU transport and best MG in the game though, 2 armour and max speed transport for 10pts is not a bad deal.
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Re: Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

Postby Hidden Gunman » Sat 13 Jul 2013 04:32

Large numbers of infantry help, too. It's awfully hard to do critical damage to 9 or 12 squads supporting each other. Where three squads in an urban cell might do a bit of damage, they will eventually get rolled. 9 or 12 mutually supporting will hold out for two or three decent attempts at removing them before they need to be reinforced or replaced. Recce is essential though...I didn't mention it earlier because I was thinking of a 'doing everything right' situation, and good recce is a stock standard game necessity.

Edit:

Some people may question or shudder at my '9 or 12' squad comments, but I'm a mech inf preference player who hauls along decks which consistently have 60 squads of basic infantry available. 9 or 12 squads on a critical position is nothing, it's par for the course...if necessary, and the opposition want to make a fight of it, I'm happy to pour in another 9 or 12 or as many as it takes...eventually the opposition either runs out of troops, or gives up and licks wounds (most times...some times I get to eat a **** sandwich, but not often).
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Re: Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

Postby EliteSniper » Sat 13 Jul 2013 04:38

I dunno, just hope that infantry will get buffed in the future where, they will all be decent in urban/forest areas like they were.

I guess if I was to say not to revert the patch then this is what I would ask the be done,

1. Tanks suffer majorly in urban and forest areas.
2. Infantry get's a major bonus in urban and forest areas.
3. Tanks have their optics turned off like jets do, and need recon in order to spot enemy units.
4. The panicked state should take more then a couple shots to get to. I'd suggest maybe 500 rounds from infantry, 10 rounds from a tank/tanks.(if you have ten tanks firing at one infantry then that infantry will be panicked.)
5. Tanks take longer to aim in urban/forest areas.

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Re: Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

Postby QT3.14159 » Sat 13 Jul 2013 04:44

SteinerGER wrote:I am really surprised atm.
Why are people stating that attacking is hard? Let alone infantry in buildings? I agree that there should be a little bit of ROF decrease and acc decrease while "panicked" but not as much as a vehicle.
When we see a tank it consists of 4 to 5 Persons, we see it as a single unit - thats okay, since they are stuffed together in their tank. If a round hits the tank - all the crew knows and feels it. Infantry in this game is different, its one unit but actually its supposed to be 10 disjunct individuals.
When an infantrysqaud is in a BLOCK of buildings(emphasize on BLOCK! not(!) a single building). Why would you spazz the out when a building like 70m afar is hit?
My suggestion would be:
- Lower the penalties for worried;shaken and pancaked hurr panicked.
- Infantry generally more resilent to fire (maybe the unit can only panic when strength < 50% Basesize ;else max. shaken)
- Improve bonuses from veterancy greatly(!)
- The smaller the unit the harder to supress (good luck finding the right spot to shoot || e.g. Faktorya(2) harder to supress than VDV(10))
-...

...PS: And of course you lose more units in an assault than your enemy - get over it.
If it was the other way round no one would defend right?


You really hit the nail on the head. It makes no sense that infantry take so much more damage than you would expect. Been watching Band of Brothers and even taking artistic licence into account the loses they take are way less than those taken by a similarly sized force in ALB. Modern tech or no a squad of veteran infantry (e.g. Legion) would not be shredded by auto-cannon fire, they are all veteran soldiers they would take cover, even if that means ducking. Infantry in ALB act more like zombies than human beings, the charge in neat (circular?) formation and never even simulate taking cover. It baffles me, veteran infantry and they don't even know how to crotch.

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Re: Infantry vs Tanks - What Happened?

Postby Hidden Gunman » Sat 13 Jul 2013 04:53

EliteSniper wrote:I dunno, just hope that infantry will get buffed in the future where, they will all be decent in urban/forest areas like they were.

I guess if I was to say not to revert the patch then this is what I would ask the be done,

1. Tanks suffer majorly in urban and forest areas.
2. Infantry get's a major bonus in urban and forest areas.
3. Tanks have their optics turned off like jets do, and need recon in order to spot enemy units.
4. The panicked state should take more then a couple shots to get to. I'd suggest maybe 500 rounds from infantry, 10 rounds from a tank/tanks.(if you have ten tanks firing at one infantry then that infantry will be panicked.)
5. Tanks take longer to aim in urban/forest areas.


I don't disagree, nor do I agree entirely....again, I'm basing my views on my experience. However, I admit that one of the factors I use in choosing my tanks these days is their optics. I know at times that I'm not as micro-intensive as I perhaps should be, and I'm not so skilfull that everything goes as it should, so I try to compensate by using gear that can cover for the multitude of my gameplay sins - there can be a marked difference between the performance of a 'medium' optics tank, and a 'poor' or 'bad' optics tank in this sort of situation we are discussing. Similarly, I like to position at least one infantry type asset with decent recce ability with that mass of line grunts in the trees or town (Spetz grunts are meant to go behind your main defence line *hint *hint...one squad with that better recce ability, and that flamethrower bazooka thingy can make a real difference).
A Firefly killed Wittman...

It's a 17lbr, not a 76.2mm.

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