High end fighter ECM question

themediocrity
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High end fighter ECM question

Postby themediocrity » Mon 22 Jul 2013 20:42

I want to make it clear that I have no definitive evidence of a problem here and my goal is not to ask for a change just to investigate a potential issue.

I've noticed that the game's 2 high-end medium range fighters (the SU-27S and F-15C) both are listed as having very good ECM. However both seem quite vulnerable nonetheless. I'm more familiar with the SU-27S as I have used it much more but I've seen the F-15C in combat occasionally. I often use this plane alongside the Mig-29S (medium ECM) and it seems like both planes are about equal in terms chances of getting hit or not in a given sortie. Similarly when I've come up against the F-15C it does not seem any more difficult to take down than the F-15A or F-14 (good ECM) possibly a little easier (although that may relate more to the F-15C's broader issues and resulting inability to fight back effectively).

This is interesting since the aircraft with exceptional ECM (EF-111A, SU-24) are much much harder to hit than the SU-27S and F-15C with very good ECM. Additionally the F-15E seems like a tougher target than the SU-27S or F-15C despite having the same ECM rating (could simply be because of the very short engagement window on this plane).

What I'm wondering is, are the ECM abilities of these aircraft less than what's listed in the armory? It sort of feels that way but that's not enough to make a claim that there's actually a problem. Has anyone tested these aircraft? If not would anyone like to test these aircraft?

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Re: High end fighter ECM question

Postby solaris » Mon 22 Jul 2013 20:49

I'd be thrilled to help determine some objective data regarding the performace of fighters against each other and ground threats if you don't get a firm answer.
Anecdotes do not count for game balance.

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Re: High end fighter ECM question

Postby v-snejok » Mon 22 Jul 2013 20:50

themediocrity wrote:I want to make it clear that I have no definitive evidence of a problem here and my goal is not to ask for a change just to investigate a potential issue.

I've noticed that the game's 2 high-end medium range fighters (the SU-27S and F-15C) both are listed as having very good ECM. However both seem quite vulnerable nonetheless. I'm more familiar with the SU-27S as I have used it much more but I've seen the F-15C in combat occasionally. I often use this plane alongside the Mig-29S (medium ECM) and it seems like both planes are about equal in terms chances of getting hit or not in a given sortie. Similarly when I've come up against the F-15C it does not seem any more difficult to take down than the F-15A or F-14 (good ECM) possibly a little easier (although that may relate more to the F-15C's broader issues and resulting inability to fight back effectively).

This is interesting since the aircraft with exceptional ECM (EF-111A, SU-24) are much much harder to hit than the SU-27S and F-15C with very good ECM. Additionally the F-15E seems like a tougher target than the SU-27S or F-15C despite having the same ECM rating (could simply be because of the very short engagement window on this plane).

What I'm wondering is, are the ECM abilities of these aircraft less than what's listed in the armory? It sort of feels that way but that's not enough to make a claim that there's actually a problem. Has anyone tested these aircraft? If not would anyone like to test these aircraft?


I agree, and I can help with testing if need.

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LoneRifle
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Re: High end fighter ECM question

Postby LoneRifle » Mon 22 Jul 2013 21:10

One of this forums marshals has done extensive testing on Morale/Ecm/Veteran effects (I am truly sorry whoever it is because your name escapes me atm, ill try to find your link after i post) and has his own topic devoted to this sort of thing. Going off my memory, bad ecm gives no bonus to evasion, Good gives a 90% chance to hit (so a 1 out of 10 reduction) Very Good gives 80% and Exceptional gives 60%. This difference in Exceptional and Very Good is noticeable for obvious reasons, so while ECM does give you an edge, unless its exceptional, the chances you will get hit by AA (especially super accurate ones like BUKS or long range air missiles) are still quite high.

Edit, I have found that once the long range sniper style aircraft like the F15's and Mig31 or 29s? (I always forget) close to medium and dog-fighting range, their combat advantages drop significantly. I have mobbed dual su27s, tomcats and migs multiple times with cheap mig23 and 25s for the soviets, and f16s and drakkens for NATO. Usually I will lose one but the other will easily take out the interceptor, which is an acceptable trade point wise.
Last edited by LoneRifle on Mon 22 Jul 2013 21:14, edited 1 time in total.
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maxiking117
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Re: High end fighter ECM question

Postby maxiking117 » Mon 22 Jul 2013 21:14

I think the hit chance is the product of AA base acc x ECM
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Re: High end fighter ECM question

Postby LoneRifle » Mon 22 Jul 2013 21:27

viewtopic.php?t=28610

viewtopic.php?f=93&t=28610&start=40

Vasily Krysov's work on what your looking for, the top one is his "what veterancy does" and the bottom link is "ECM ratings"

I'd also like to give a shout out to Krysov for his work, when I joined the forum and started playing the game, his analysis helped me decide how to build my decks and gave me a much more fundamental understanding of the game
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themediocrity
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Re: High end fighter ECM question

Postby themediocrity » Mon 22 Jul 2013 21:47

LoneRifle wrote:http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28610

viewtopic.php?f=93&t=28610&start=40

Vasily Krysov's work on what your looking for, the top one is his "what veterancy does" and the bottom link is "ECM ratings"

I'd also like to give a shout out to Krysov for his work, when I joined the forum and started playing the game, his analysis helped me decide how to build my decks and gave me a much more fundamental understanding of the game



That's very useful, thank you.

I'm not sure if it answers my question though which has specifically to do with if the SU-27S and F-15C have their proper multipliers for their listed ECM ratings (although if the bonus is only a 20% reduction from medium to very good that might simply not be very noticeable in the chaos).

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Re: High end fighter ECM question

Postby Poerisija » Mon 22 Jul 2013 23:04

ECM values really don't seem to stand true in some cases. I've been wanting to test a SU-24 vs Raven for a while now, because generally I can keep a Raven alive all game unless enemy PLANES shoot it down and SU-24 dies to first hit from whatever wants to shoot at it.

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Re: High end fighter ECM question

Postby dzimmu » Mon 22 Jul 2013 23:27

Stealth option also affects the likelihood of evasion. So Raven better than su24. His stealth is a good option as opposed to the middle in su24.
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Re: High end fighter ECM question

Postby DoktorvonWer » Tue 23 Jul 2013 01:01

dzimmu wrote:Stealth option also affects the likelihood of evasion. So Raven better than su24. His stealth is a good option as opposed to the middle in su24.


Stealth doesn't affect CTH directly as far as I was aware, I thought it simply reduced the number of missiles that usually get lock and fire as the plane is visible for less time :?


I'm frequently surprised at just how easy my Tornado ADV F3s and F-15Cs are to hit by a single missile emplacement, but maybe I expect too much for the huge pricetag...
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