On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

RaduM
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On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

Postby RaduM » Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:12

Hello everyone.

I have started this thread in order to strike up conversation regarding the issue of Mixed Decks vs National Decks. As it stands right now, National Decks are at best a very brave choice in any situation where a person is playing "for real", be it a community-organized competition or Eugen's own Ranked Ladder. At worst, it is suicidal to pick a National Deck.

The reason behind this is that while prototypes restrict certain high-end units, in general Mixed Decks are much more viable because they are very close to being the Best of all Worlds rather than being Jacks of all Trades (and Masters of None).

I believe it is quite telling when the most high-end tanks NATO has to offer are available for a Mixed Deck.

This is the reason why there are barely, if any, examples of players using National Decks in competitive matches.

In order for there to be genuine dilemma between choosing a National or Mixed Deck, both options have to bring comparable advantages and disadvantages.

What I propose is a paradigm shift. Expand the criteria from "Prototype" to "Nation Restricted", allowing for more units to be made exclusive to their respective nations.

The end result is that a National Deck will offer unique capabilities in several areas that a Mixed Deck cannot match. On the other hand, a Mixed Deck should have no weaknesses, gaining access to various middle-of-the-ground units that cover all niches of the battlefield.

Below is a detailed (but by no means exhaustive, nor final) proposal to give an idea of what I am talking about.

NATO

- INF

As far as Reserve (typically 5 points) Infantry is concerned, I would recommend making the GER Heimatschutzen, DEN Hjemvaernet and SWE Hemsvaermaen Nation Restricted to their respective nations, while leaving the French Reservistes available for a Mixed Deck. Their capabilitites are decent, have access to a good variety of transport units and are quite flexibile Deck Type-wise (they are available for all Deck Types except Air Assault).

Regarding Standard (typically 10 points) Infantry, I would propose for GER Jaegers (as the best infantry in its category) + DEN,NOR,SWE (also high quality, and minor nations need all the advantages they can get) to be Nation-Restricted.

Assault (typically 15 points) Infantry would see the US Light Riflemen and GER Panzergrenadiere available for Mixed Decks, covering between them all Deck Types. The rest, UK Paratroopers, FRA Legion, CAN Vandoos, DEN Livgarden, NOR Stormer, Nation Restricted,

Additionally, the US Marines should serve as the Mixed Deck's main Marine Infantry. The UK Royal Marines and FRA RIMa should be Restricted to their particular nations.

Only the US Delta Force should be available to a mixed deck. All the other Special Forces in the Infantry section should be Nation Restricted.

As the most high-performing Infantry ATGMs, the FRA MILAN F2 and SWE RBS 56 should be Nation Restricted, all the others should be Mixed available.

As the most high-performing MANPADS, the US Stinger and NOR, SWE RBS 70 shouldbe Nation Restricted. Blowpipe, Redeye and Javelin MANPADS should be Mixed available however.

- SUP

(Mortars 60mm-120mm+ and Light Howitzers 100m+ need no adjustment)

As high-end howitzers, the SWE Bkan and FRA AuF1 should be Nation-Restricted.

The US and UK M110A2 should be Nation-Restricted as they are the best performing heavy howitzers in NATO inventory.

The MLRS should be US-Restricted and the LARS-2 should be GER-Restricted, leaving the LARS-1 as the Mixed Deck Rocket Artillery.

(SPAAGs, Radar and Non-Radar need no adjustments)

As the highest-performing Radar SAMs, the FRA and GER Roland 2s should be Nation-Restricted

As the highest-performing IR SAM, the US M48A1 Chapparal should be Nation-Restricted

- TNK

The following high-end tanks should be Nation Restricted : US M1A1, UK Challenger 1,GER Leopard 2A4 and 2A1. The most high-performing tank for a Mixed Deck is the Leopard 2. Lower-end tanks of the Leopard 1,M60/M48 Patton, Centurion/Chieftain families should of course not be restricted.

- REC

As the jeeps with the best optics, the US FAV Jeep and UK Rover Pinky should be Nation-Restricted.

As the recon heloes with the best optics, the US OH-53D (70 and 100 points versions) and the UK Gazelle (both versions) should be Nation-Restricted.

All Armored Very Good optics vehicles should be Nation Restricted.

The following Infantry Recon Units should be Nation Restricted :
- UK SAS (MAPADS special forces)
- FRA Hussards (low price, high movement speed on foot,everybody uses them)
- GER Fernspaeher (sniper-rifle equipped special forces)
- DEN Jaegers (10-man recon squad rivaling best frontline infantry)
- NOR Marinejaeger (sniper-rifle equipped special forces)

- VHC
All I-TOW,TOW2 equipped vehicles should be Nation-Restricted.

- HEL
All I-TOW,TOW2,HOT2 equipped helicopters should be Nation-Restricted

- PLA

(Interceptors)

As the sole long-range Interceptor, the US F-14 should be Nation-Restricted.

(SEAD)
As the best SEAD in NATO inventory, the EF-111A Raven should be Nation-Restricted.

(Dedicated CAS)
As the only and best dedicated CAS aircraft, the A-10 should be Nation-Restricted

(Ground Attack/Multirole Aircraft)
All Ground Attack and Multirole Aircraft with "Good" ECM or higher should be Nation-Restricted.




PACT

- INF

Reserve Infantry and Standard Infantry units are too few, essential and with too little differences to draw a line, thus the 5-point GER Reserveschuetzen and the 10-point SOV Motorstrelki,CZE Motorstrelci and POL Piechota Zemch, are all available for a Mixed Deck.

As far as Assault Infantry is concerned, the GER Mot-schuetzen fill the niche for MOT,MECH,ARM Mixed decks, CZE Vysadkari fill the niche for PARA,AASLT Mixed and POL Nebieske Berety fill the MAR Mixed niche.

The rest of the 15-20 point Assault Infantry are Nation-Restricted.

As far as Special Forces go only SOV Spetnaz is available to a Mixed Deck, the other 2 are Nation-Restricted (GER FJB-40,POL Kommandosi).

As far as ATGM infantry goes, all Konkurs Teams are Nation-Restricted, leaving the Fagot as the primary Infantry ATGM. (Similarly to how NATO relies on the MILAN F1)

MANPADS-wise, the SOV Igla should be Nation-Restricted, leaving the SOV Strela-3 as the best MANPADS available to a mixed deck.

- SUP

(Medium Howitzers 150mm+)
Being high-end Howitzers, the POL and CZE DANAs should be Nation-Restricted

(Heavy Howitzers 200m+)
Being the only high-end PACT Heavy Howitzer, the SOV Malka should be Nation-Restricted

(Rocket Artillery)
All Rocket Artillery Systems except for the BM-24/21 versions should be Nation-Restricted

(Radar-Guided SAMs)
As the most advanced system in its class, the SOV Buk-M1 should be Nation-Restricted

- TNK

The following high-end tanks should be Nation-Restricted : SOV T-80BV,T-80A,T-72B,T-64BV,T-64BV1. All other lower end versions and models should be Mixed available.

- REC

As the Jeep with the best optics, the SOV AGS-17 UAZ should be Nation-Restricted.

As the Helicopters with the best optics, the SOV,GER Mi-9 and POL Mi-2Ro should be Nation-Restricted

All Armored Recon vehicles with optics "Very Good" and "Exceptional" should be Nation-Restricted

The following Recon special forces should be Nation-Restricted :
- SOV Spetnaz VMF
- CZE Specialny Jednotki

- VHC

The SOV MT-LB ATGM vehicle should be Nation-Restricted

- HEL

(no changes)

- PLA

(Interceptors)

As one of the best dedicated interceptors, the SOV Su-27s should be Nation-Specific.

Additionally, the MiG-31 long-range interceptor should join the F-14 as Nation-Restricted.

(Ground Attack/Multirole Aircraft)
All "Good/Very Good" ECM Ground Attack and Multirole Aircraft should be Nation-Specific, like for NATO.

---------------------------------

Again, the above is by no means dogma, merely a detailed example. The desired end result is that picking a Nation for a Deck should be a serious alternative to a Mixed Deck, rather than how it is now ...something one does when he/she is clowning around.

As it stands right now, the benefits offered by National Decks simply do not counterbalance the restrictions they impose. I hope this will change.
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Re: On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

Postby orcbuster » Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:23

National decks are perfectly viable as map specific oriented decks. They will never be competitive jack of all trades decks that can be used on any map but there are maps and gametypes where this sort of deck thrives. Im primarily a Norway player whose mass of high vet inf are very viable on maps that are all about urban grinding like Ålesund and copenhagen. Especially now that conquest is out and we have the best NATO long range SAMs in the game.

my 80% win rate as a 95% norway player is proof of that.
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Re: On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

Postby Sevatar » Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:25

+ 1.000.000 for the ideas
Cherry picked Allstar decks are boring because there is no disatvantage wich should be imho be there.
At least there should be in the mp Lobby a button which disables mixed decks.
Last edited by Sevatar on Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

Postby stratmania » Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:25

Just like orcbuster, I am also of the opinion that national decks are good for certain maps.

In fact, the only thing about national decks that gets me is the aircraft loadouts, but Xeno's thread fixes that.

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Re: On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

Postby RaduM » Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:29

orcbuster wrote:
my 80% win rate as a 95% norway player is proof of that.


Three questions.

1) How many of those wins were achieved in a Ranked match ?
2) How many of those wins were achieved during a tournament ?
3) How many of those wins were achieved when playing against randoms ?
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Re: On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

Postby xXSunSlayerXx » Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:36

RaduM wrote:
orcbuster wrote:
my 80% win rate as a 95% norway player is proof of that.


Three questions.

1) How many of those wins were achieved in a Ranked match ?
2) How many of those wins were achieved during a tournament ?
3) How many of those wins were achieved when playing against randoms ?



did you even read the paragraph before that sentence?

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Re: On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

Postby orcbuster » Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:39

Read what I said. They work in specialized situations. They are not meant to be generally competitive. Don't play ranked. The majority of the playerbase do not play ranked, as a matter of fact most people think ranked is broken.
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Re: On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

Postby Adolith » Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:43

The problem with balancing/nerfing/buffing national decks is USSR and USA to a certain extent. In the proposal of OP USSR would be become extreme dominating. I would prefer buffing minor nations to nerfing "mixed".

Example:

- two cards t72 WILK for Poland compared to the one card now
- mixed NATO gets one card Leo2a4, W-Germany gets two cards
- canada gets +1 vet for all infantry

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Re: On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

Postby stratmania » Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:50

Give minor nations prototypes something of an edge if it is comparable to a non-proto unit. For example, the czech T-72M1M and the T-72B have identical stats, but the czech one is a proto. Maybe buff the proto a bit? That would give the czechs a proper heavy tank (its already quite good, just the armored restriction that is killing me... My STROP 2...)

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Re: On Mixed vs National Decks - A Proposal (long post!)

Postby RaduM » Fri 9 Aug 2013 15:52

@orcbuster

Matches against randoms hardly illustrate the current situation of the game. Heck, if that were true, the Danish Motorized deck would be OP... were it not for the observation that the Danish Motorized Decks are employed by coordinated players.
That do win.
By a large margin.
Because they are coordinated.
Which has nothing to do with deck viability.

Strip that coordination advantage away however, and mostly you have exercises in historical flavor.

Whatever your Norwegian National Deck can do, simply put, a Mixed Deck can also do. Better in fact. Which is precisely the point.

Sure, you could play national decks in W:EE if you wanted to, might even win vs randoms, but that hardly meant W:EE actually had any National Decks to speak of.

Well, W:ALB does have them... except the Mixed Decks also multi-national. Sure, there are prototypes, and it's good the DLC added more, but the simple truth is Mixed Decks still retain a wide swath of very much viable units across the nations.

Setting aside the top of their class for individual nations however, might change the equation. For the better I'd say, otherwise, why would Eugen even have bothered with National Decks in the first place if they didn't actually intend for them to be used as such?
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