Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT WIP

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HaryPL
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Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT WIP

Postby HaryPL » Sun 1 Sep 2013 15:06

Content
1. Introduction
2. Few questions to developers
3. Changes to AAA / AA units & weapons
4. Changes to Planes vs Helicopters
5. Changes to Helicopters

1.
Current helicopter meta is simply bad. It divides into 2 ways:
- NATO spamming cheap crappy helicopters in C-cat decks
- PACT massing 10HP gunships / transports and overwhelming any reasonable AA

For sake of keeping topic coherent I’ll focus on 2nd point as I am doing more NATO for once, and for second the spam tactic of C-deck is category of it’s own and even if can provide overwhelming effect like in case of ”10HP rush-in” it does nerf it itself by heavily limiting any other ( armor, plane, support ) options for C cat deck user unlike in case of A cat ( sometimes B-cat though then it’s questionable and should fix itself with changes to A-cat situation) PACT deck users

General consensus seems to be to divide AA units in W:ALB into categories seen on diagram that still ‘bounces around’ forums:
- Radar SAM that is most effective vs aircrafts but worst vs helicopters
- SALCOS / IR SAM that is ‘Jack of all trades’ yet vary a lot between each other ( for example OSAs and Roland 1) and can’t ensure working AA cover if one is based only on this type of units ( notable exception would be Tung-M & ADATs but those have own problems that are mostly availability )
- Radar AAA that is most effective vs helicopters but worst vs aircrafts
- Non-Radar AAA that is more like a cheap deterrent ( rear CV protection? but who has Activation Points to put that in deck?) than actual counter as it can kill only if enemy unit ask for it
- MANPADs that should be ultimate counter for helicopters that come too close and also mediocre vs CAS planes ( as others rarely get into range and sincerely should, performing normal attack missions, should not get into it)

In my opinion current situation should be reshaped into one similar to above with keeping game balance a bit in front of realism, by which I mean mostly bigger / lesser availability of particular units ( especially prototypes ) or their range


2.
- Is there possibility to limit missile fuel? So it ‘disappears’ after some time / distance and fe. do not magically chase aircraft through whole map?
That would relate mostly to MANPADs chasing down and killing aircrafts that got, often during evac, for 1-2sec in their max range

- What are settings that model helicopter behavior, maneuverability? Is there possibility to change each single helicopter agility, turning etc time?

3. Changes to AAA /AA

Most of changes should consider AAA units ( with few exceptions like Roland 1, OSAs ).
There should be noted however that situation is again different for PACT and NATO:
- NATO has to deal with a bit less numerous helicopters yet 10HP ones that has more ATGM range
- PACT has to deal with more numerous yet far weaker and less-ranged helicopters

The big part of current heli-problem is that even if the ‘opponents’ of AA are different, balance treats AAA/AA the same way. That should be changed, especially in matters concerning AAA, to help the meta get better.


a) General changes

- AAA should be more numerous per card
due to it’s longer kill-time and fragility player needs more of them than missile-based systems, it’s also quite a requirement to have equal or more AAA units than there might be targets to not get overwhelmed due not game play but APs

- Prototypes are considered as bonus for taking national deck, meaning they are not only very few superb units to take but can take frontline role – at least partially but still in bigger part than now – of non-prototype units of nation with similar purpose

- Autocannons of IFV & those tank mounted should receive increase to range vs Heli
it should be increased to 1750m / 1925m on global level to increase possibilities of self-defense of combined assault groups the player might create to attack; without need to bring abysmall number of real AA with him.
Helicopters hit, and should hit, hard but they are also fragile to enemy blows. Getting in range of modern IFVs autocannons should hurt and if one intends to fight them, the FFARs and ATGMs are providing enough bufor zone to do it right and smart

- M134 Minigun could receive buff
The range vs helicopter should be buffed up to ~1250m ( possibly range vs ground targets as well ).
Currently it’s stats, joined with the it’s carriers, make this potent weapon almost useless.
Part of problem of heli-meta consists of numerous transport helicopters presence. Allowing transport helicopters fight each other better than now, yet keeping the non-mirror balance, might decrease a problem a bit

- AAA fire should have higher chance to cause critic hit
Especially on chance to blow the ammo rack off ( 20/30mm shrapnels will rather easily render ATGMs as damaged electronic junk as well as will have nice chance to blow primed FFARs in tubes)

- Possibly some ( high caliber low RoF ) AAA could receive increase in HE-power ( could consider also IFVs cannons )

b) Particular units

Of course all changes, and considering the current situation those would be buffs, should go with according price increase; yet this would ( if even) be better decided by marshalls or others than just me.

LVKV
basic availability: 16 -> 28
Anti Helo range: 1925m -> 2100m
Anti Plane range: 1575m ( no changes )
ACC: 3 ( no changes )
RoF: 266 ( no changes )
Suppression: 92 ( no changes )
HE power: 1 -> 2 ( 40mm )
basic veterancy: rookie ( no changes )

Reservist AAA.. extremely ACC but due to good old Bosfor, if it finally hits something it hurts. On the other hand – if something hits it, forget it will calm down to the rest of the game

FlakPanzer
basic availability: 12 -> 20
Anti Helo range: 1925m -> 2100m
Anti Plane range: 1575m ( no changes )
ACC: 4 ( no changes )
RoF: 266 ( no changes )
Suppression: 92 ( no changes )
HE power: 1 -> 2 ( 40mm )
basic veterancy: rookie ( no changes )

Another reservist AA.. a bit better than Swedish one ( +1 acc, some armor on vehicle) yet still questionable option even if better than now.

Gepard
basic availability: 8 -> 12
Anti Helo range: 2800m -> 2925m
Anti Plane range: 2800m -> 2100 (decrease )
ACC: 7 ( no changes )
RoF: 181 ( no changes )
Suppression:
HE power: 1 -> 1.5 ( 35mm )
basic veterancy: trained ( no changes )

One of the best AAA in game, sniper-style ( as far as AAA designed to fill the air with bullets can get close to such) for cost of being radar-based and long-range meaning lower RoF than on other AAA guns thus even with good ACC the kill-time might be long-ish and performance against planes even weaker.

Gepard A1 (prototype)
basic availability: 6 -> 0/0/8/6/0
Anti Helo range: 2800m -> 2925m
Anti Plane range: 2800m -> 2525 (decrease )
ACC: 9 ( no changes )
RoF: 181 ( no changes )
Suppression:
HE power: 1 -> 1.5 ( 35mm )
basic veterancy: hardened ( 1 up)

2nd(?) best of NATO AAA, though available only for West German as prototype. Designed to protect Leopard pushes against enemy helicopters and it excels in it even during movement with superior range and ACC, but at cost of being specialized: even due to long-ish range the low RoF requires other AA unit to provide efficient coverage against enemy planes ( and fits recent Marder 2 nerf that makes it, and West Germany, helicopter-heaven now)

Oeil Noir
basic availability: 8 -> 12
Anti Helo range: 2275m -> 2625m
Anti Plane range: 2275m (no changes)
ACC: 6 (no changes)
RoF: 200 -> 250
Suppression:
HE power: 1 -> 1.5 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)

Middle-of-the line AAA. Range slightly lower than enemy ATGMs but has higher RoF than Gepards and a bit more of anti-airplane range as well as availability and lower cost

Falcon
basic availability: 6 -> 12
Anti Helo range: 2100m -> 2625m
Anti Plane range: 1750m (no changes)
ACC: 8 (no changes)
RoF: 263 (no changes)
Suppression:
HE power: 1 -> 1.5 (30mm)
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)

Medicore AAA, though Brits should be happy anyway especially thanks to availability boost. Better range vs helicopters than before but for fighting planes you have to bring Rapiers and Tornado F3s

VEAK (prototype)
basic availability: 6 -> 0/0/8/6/0
Anti Helo range: 2800m -> 2925m
Anti Plane range: 2800m (no changes)
ACC: 8 (no changes)
RoF: 360 -> 300 (decrease)
Suppression:
HE power: 1 -> 2 (40mm)
basic veterancy: hardened (+1)

Probably best NATO AAA though limited only to Sweden, where along HAWK and RBS70 it’s its only air defense. Due to that, it keeps uniquely good range vs planes. 40mm caliber provides great damage but the RoF is decreased not over-do unit effectiveness.

Vulcan
basic availability: 12 -> 16
Anti Helo range: 2100m -> 2450m
Anti Plane range: 1750m (no changes)
ACC: 4 (no changes)
RoF: 1184 (no changes)
Suppression:
HE power: 1 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)

AAA-flamethrower, highly inaccurate and supply-demanding but riddling air with 20mm projectiles. More like vSHORAD than full-time AAA but if enemy gets near it, it can most usually handle him in seconds. IF enemy gets near it as chasing with 40km/h is rather not efficient. With following changes helicopters at least won’t be able to harmlessly stun it with rockets.

Pivads
basic availability: 8 ->12
Anti Helo range: 2450m -> 2625m
Anti Plane range: 2450m -> 1925m (decrease)
ACC: 9 (no changes)
RoF: 1184 (no changes)
Suppression:
HE power: 1 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)

Ultimate sprinkler and the one with ‘good eye’. Helicopters in range won’t like it as long as it won’t run out of ammo plus even though added radar range-finder that increases effective range against helicopters, man-operated Vulcan isn’t the best option to engage enemy aircrafts.. though if one wonder directly over it it may dislike the result.

VAB VDAA
basic availability: 8 -> 16
Anti Helo range: 1925m -> 2625m
Anti Plane range: 1400m (no changes)
ACC: 7 (no changes)
RoF: 400 (no changes)
Suppression:
HE power: 1 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)

Decent,cheap and fast AAA able to target almost only helicopter threats as it has abysmall range vs planes. Wheeled so it can be used to provide much needed anti-helicopter defense for start-game infantry moves.

Charpall
basic availability: 8 -> 12
Anti Helo range: 2450m -> 2625m
Anti Plane range: 1925m -> 2100m (no changes)
ACC: 7 (no changes)
RoF: 9 -> 8 (decrease to save ammo)
Suppression:
HE power: 5 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)
SPECIAL: +5 HP, slightly faster reload


Charpall A1
basic availability: 4
Anti Helo range: 3500m (no changes)
Anti Plane range: 2800m (no changes)
ACC: 8 -> 9
RoF: 9 -> 8 ( decrease to save ammo)
Suppression:
HE power: 6 (no changes)
basic veterancy: hardened (+1)
SPECIAL: +5 HP; slightly faster reload

Current best anti-helo for NATO. Though with abysmal lacks in ammo and survivability, lacking accuracy compared to other best anti-helo units as well. A bit more accuracy ( competitors still have more ) and survivability thanks to +5HP and +1 vet.
Personally would like it nerfed to 2800&2600 levels and Roland 1 taking it place as NATO long-range anti-heli but.. that’s one big, for other discussion.


Avanger (prototype)
basic availability: 8
Anti Helo range: 2275m -> 2625m
Anti Plane range: 1820m -> 1625m (decrease)
ACC: 11 (no changes)
RoF: 20 -> 18 ( decrease to save ammo)
Suppression:
HE power: 5 (no changes)
basic veterancy: hardened (no changes)
SPECIAL: +5 HP

Humvee with Stingers strapped on top ( now with + range compared to infantry-carried); very deadly for helicopters but totally unarmored and practically helpless against aircrafts. Sadly, a prototype and unavailable in Armored / Mechanized decks.

Tracked Rapier
basic availability: 6 -> 8
Anti Helo range: 2625m -> 2800m
Anti Plane range: 2100m -> 1925m
ACC: 10 (no changes)
RoF: 20 -> 18 ( decrease to save ammo)
Suppression:
HE power: 6 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)

British ‘immobile’ missile thrower, now, with sibling FSA present to handle aircrafts, worse at that but better at vs helicopter. Still immobile if off-road.

Roland 1
basic availability: 6 -> 8
Anti Helo range: 2800m -> 2800m
Anti Plane range: 2225m -> 2100m
ACC: 10 (no changes)
RoF: 10 -> 12
Suppression:
HE power: 5 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)

Multirole IR AA that’s good at what it does but one can’t really build whole AA system around it due to low-ish performance against aircrafts. It doesn’t have guns, RoF or doesn’t out-range most of enemy helicopters like basic Tunguska but has more availability and is more armored. Slight RoF ( reload ) boost.

Mistral, RBS70 ( infantry, mounted )
basic availability: 8 -> 12
Anti Helo range: 2450m -> 2625m
Anti Plane range: 1960m (no changes)
ACC: 10 (no changes)
RoF: 10/6 -> 10
Suppression:
HE power: 6/ 5 -> 6 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)

Stinger Infantry

basic availability: 8 -> 12
Anti Helo range: 2225m -> 2425m
Anti Plane range: 1960m -> 1625m (decrease)
ACC: 10 (no changes)
RoF: 6 -> 10
Suppression:
HE power: 5 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)


PACT Units: WIP
They are aimed IMO mostly at improving AAA ( Shilkas) and AA of minor nations, as Soviets and mixed PACT can handle helicopter threats quite well even now (both tunguskas); a bit more of explanation/ point of view bellow PACT unit changes.

Praga

basic availability: 12 -> 18
Anti Helo range: 2100m -> 2550m
Anti Plane range: 1750m -> 1625m (decrease)
ACC: 6 (no changes)
RoF: 200 (no changes)
Suppression:
HE power: 1 -> 1.5
basic veterancy: trained (no changes)
SPECIAL: +5 HP

Basic AAA to employ in big numbers, not that bad accuracy and good hitting power thanks to 30mm

Strop1

basic availability: 6 -> 8
Anti Helo range: 2450m -> 2625m
Anti Plane range: 1750m -> 1925m
ACC: 8 (no changes)
RoF: 200
Suppression:
HE power: 1.5 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained

Improvement over basic AAA of Praga with range ACC and range enough to endanger I-TOW / TOW2 carriers that may try to decrease number of czech T72s rolling towards the enemy. It has drawback of while being quite efficient in power and in mobility, it has terrible operational range.. so you need to watch out for supplies to keep the cover for your tanks rolling with them where it can actually use it's above-average stats

Strop2
basic availability: 8 -> 12
Guns
Anti Helo range: 2800m (no changes)
Anti Plane range: 1750m (no changes)
ACC: 9 (no changes)
RoF: 272
Suppression:
HE power: 1->1.5
Missiles
Anti Helo range: 2425m -> 2625m
Anti Plane range: 1960m -> 1625m
HE power: 5
basic veterancy: trained

Czech best AAA. Long range autocannon can handle threats of few F&F Hellfires while it safely out-ranges most of I-TOW / TOW2 ATGMs; Igla's missiles on top of that ensure that any helicopter lucky enough to get inside of AC range will go down before it's guided missiles can hit anything. It's carrying a lot of firepower with high speed and great mobility ( chassing enemy helicopters that got stunned seems pretty available) with a quite respectful survivability of carrier with front and side armor of 2

BRDM Striela

basic availability: 8 -> 12
Anti Helo range: 2450m -> 2550m
Anti Plane range: 1820m -> 1625m
ACC: 9 (no changes)
RoF: 9 -> 10
Suppression:
HE power: 4 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained

Basic anti-helicopter IR SAM. Good availability and mobility though lacking in firepower due to small-ish range and only 4 missiles. Good for filling the map with ambush-purposes for it's cost

Czech MT-LB Striela10

basic availability: 4 -> 6
Anti Helo range: 2450m -> 2525m
Anti Plane range: 1925m -> 2100m
ACC: 10 (no changes)
RoF: 15
Suppression:
HE power: 5 (no changes)
basic veterancy: trained (-1)
SPECIAL: ammo reserve decreased from 12 to 8

Frontline IR multirole SAM. Even if having still shorter range than TOW family, it becomes a bit better vs planes and have increased availability even if on lower ( standard trained) vet. Good mobility, great firepower and accuracy and uniquely, at least for small IR systems, ammo reserve for another salvo (even if decreased from current 2 reserve salvos). It can also rife on the move what helps when traveling in formation to destination and fits perfectly to 2nd line of full-time AA net working behind long range AAA and in front of Radar-based anti-aircraft SAMs



Worth mentioning is that each and any ( but lol-models) of PACT ATGMs have range of 2800m while NATO has generally 2625m ATGMs with 2800m exceptions for Kiowa Wr (prototype), Apache (prototype) and SeaHawk. Meaning of that is that NATO AAA ( AA) has to be generally longer-ranged than PACT one to provide similar effectiveness of AA denial zone and F&F + additional range of Hellfires is asymmetrical balance of PACT longer-ranged ATGMs on ground, on tanks and in general.
It’s also worth mentioning that even Hellfire doesn’t outrange PACT AA as best available per given deck AAA/AA has range at least equal to it while mostly out-ranging 2626m ATGMs of other choppers by wider margin than even buffed NATO AA/AAA outranges Kokons etc and best PACT deck (soviet) still has better ultimate-anti helo system (TungM) than one available for best NATO deck (mixed) .

Also all Anti-Plane designed ( used) AA should receive nerf to anti helo range.
For medium range ones ( ~3500m) it should be 2450m and for HAWKs & BUKs variants it should be brought down as low as to 1925m

4. Changes in airplanes vs helicopters

- Aircraft cannons range increase
from 1400m to 1925m
- Aircraft IR missiles range increase
from 1750m to 2450m

SPECIAL:

- AIM9 from SuperCobra range increase
swapping the range of vs aircrafts ( 3500m) with one vs helicopters (1750m)

5. Changes to helicopters

- Maneuverability

size Big -> current agility/ maneuverability statistics*
size Medium -> 20-25% better agility/ maneuverability statistics*
size Small -> 40-50% better agility/ maneuverability statistics*
size Very Small -> 65-75% better agility/ maneuverability statistics*

*meaning faster turning, stopping, speeding up and so on. Max speed, aiming etc. remains not changed.

- Availability

a) B/C category choppers that have basic availability of 8 & 6
Receive -2 to base availability. They aren’t any choice in A cat deck and decreased base will effect lesser number available in ‘spam decks’ that with buffed AAA should resolve spam problem especially that helicopters with such numbers are rarely high HP ones

b) Soviet Mi24 V & VP
Receive treatment similar to Seahawk few patches ago, their availability per card being split into next 2 cards meaning 0/4/3/2/0 and 0/3/2/1/0 instead of current 0/8/6/4/2 and 0/6/4/2/0.

Number of packs available ( now 2 of each, after above change 4 of each) is left for consideration as no other nation / mixed deck can bring that many quality gunships at all, especially when we consider numbers of those available for mixed PACT.. it might be helped by ‘prototyping’ some of cards fe. minor nation ones.

c) Non-soviet Mi24V ( Mi24W & Mi35)
Should receive -2 per current base availability or similarly to above have availability split into more cards. Number of packs available then ( total number of units available) should remain same though, with possibility to ‘prototype’ those helicopters to limit mixed deck spam of them.

d) 10 HP nerf
Helicopters with 10HP should receive -1 or -2 to HP at global. It’s one of the main reasons of troubles with them as they require exponentially more force to kill them than to kill their equivalents; it’s particularly visible when older MANPADs or IR missiles try to shoot them down: to kill 10HP helicopter with 3HE MANPAD it needs to hit it 4 times.. given it’s accuracy and RoF this becomes practically impossible.
8 HP seems to be optimal for any heavy gunship / helicopter.

e) Puma & Pumas Pirate
Since last AC nerf they went from 'NATO Mi24 spam equivalent' to 'never seen again'. AC without AP and troubled with killing any APC is quite unworthy of using.. though previous situation was truly worse, where hordes of Pirates were often chewing even through armored columns ( hell, even I once de-atomized DDR armored rush with Pirate rush..). Though semi-reversing situation to making Pirate Puma available only to Legion and Comandos Para ( side-doors 20mm gun might fit RIMa (marines) better but there comes the pricing and availability issue so rather no-go) and giving it back 1 AP might effect in seeing on field again something else than 10 point Donniers / Hueys. They work also nice as asymmetrical equivalent of heavily armed PACT transport helicopters.
Low priority though

e) Mi8
First version of it should receive price drop at cost of taking away the FFAR pods and remaining with HMG only. It will, in one move, decrease possibility of meeting numbers of them flying and stunning stuff either on its own (small problem) or as meat-shield (bigger problem) ( as many of players do not seem to know what better to do with them), and give PACT alternative to new Mi2 / Mi4 transports where for a (then) bit higher cost they get more survivable and faster helicopter (if less maneuverable) yet without much of attack / support possibilities ( think of Puma alike for PACT, even weapons check)



Some general answers:

Why there is mostly, or at first, NATO AA buffs?
It will be thrown as accusation so no reason, or harm, to admit: I do more NATO than PACT.
Also, I've met - both in-game and on forums - with so-called "Hind wall" or 3vs3 / 4vs4 1-2 players mixed/ minor Heli rush aimed at overwhelming one of the flanks with so much dealt looses and blocked terrain that game, for NATO, becomes harder than CoD on highest difficulty level.. while I've never really met with something like 'Huey wall' or 'Cobra valkirie's ride'; at lest not one to succeed at something but defeating the user of it.

Changes in OP are way too far going
I'm not a child that lost a game and now came to forum and want nerf a unit into a ground. I presented broad re-work of AAA/AA vs helis as simple user, without deep knowledge of engine or Eugen's intentions knowing that some of them may - if team even decides to consider them - to drop off at start by any of: engine limits, game design, team view on how the problem should be fixed. Therefore, a big list of changes - still, I hope, coherent one - that can still work even if one or two points are said to be 'no go'.
I'm also studying geodesy ( land surveying) and it's normal for me to achieve 'best point' by going a bit too much to left, then a bit too much to right (etc) till middle-point is achieved. This also may affect a bit the number, broadness, of proposed changes.

I'm also totally sure if anything of my proposals get into actual game it will have to go through Marshalls that will 'finish them off' during internal tests, that also why I left the pricing totally out of my suggestions noting only that there should be prices changes done by team if such big changes would be implemented.

OSAs, BuKs, Rapier FSA, Marder Roland2 etc where are they
I consider them anti-aircraft systems thus with very limited abilities vs helicopters and not a point of my thread.
Yes, I quite hate fe. the last changes to Marder Roland2 but assuming we're going for something else than "1 truly usefull unit and 9 purpose-less placeholders" that's the way to go.




Edit legend:
01.09 - added no. 4 e) f); general answers; some of no. 3 for PACT
Last edited by HaryPL on Sun 1 Sep 2013 23:28, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT

Postby BeyondNight » Sun 1 Sep 2013 15:26

I see quite a few problems with stomping out PACT helo capability whilst not really addressing NATO's

That being said other than things like changing the Chaparral and nerfing the Fixed-Wing ranges, it seems like a slot of SPAAG and some other NATO units could use some anti-heli boosts, mainly to minors who are woefully unequipped to deal with anything of mass due to a lot of them having restricted numbers of viable AA assets.

What id be most interested in seeing is a M134 Damage increase just so it could do a little more shredding of inf in the open, and the M2 to get the 1250M range due to the Kinetic performance difference in the rounds, where the M2 and its high suppression wouldnt kill the PACT helis like an M134 would but at least be able to Panic them and make it so you could at least try to get some boots on the ground without being totally and utterly annihilated.

P.S. i saw no mention of ADATS in there, even though it actually kind of suck, especially against 10HP helicopters.

P.P.S. Id love to see some PACT SPAAG RoF and/or He increase so that they can deal with the cheaper helis more effectively, not so much by completely killing them but breaking there formations up and pancaking them, rendering the practically ineffective and also allowing shorter range but more powerful systems like the Streal or even OSA lines.
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Re: Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT

Postby Ramagar » Sun 1 Sep 2013 15:29

I would be happy if it simply killed all the units on the helicopter vs having some actually live and fight. It's like magic considering what happens in the real world.

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Re: Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT

Postby orcbuster » Sun 1 Sep 2013 15:33

If I'm not mistaken the vehicles that are carrying the RBS-70 might be upgraded to mkII standard and recieve a 2800 heli range as this system has a longer range than the rapier for instance.
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Re: Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT

Postby stratmania » Sun 1 Sep 2013 15:33

Waiting for PACT now... I hope you give due consideration to the strela series.

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Re: Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT

Postby von_bock » Sun 1 Sep 2013 15:36

I tried reading your post, OP. I got to the point where you dis the Chapparal (but get the name wrong) and I just gave up.
Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad.

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Re: Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT

Postby rrev » Sun 1 Sep 2013 15:41

Strange, I don't see any "heli-meta" and I've never encountered it in any format ever, since I quit 1v1 rank. I must play another game, guys? But anyways thank you for the chuckles and cheering up my Sunday, OP!

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Re: Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT

Postby stratmania » Sun 1 Sep 2013 15:41

The heli changes also seemed like "nerf PACT". the hind availability nerf is reasonable, though. Would prefer a price increase.

I hope you do not intend on making heloes unviable. Just make them a skirmish force. Note that the hind is well armored IRL, and that 10 HP can be killed easily. Asking for a nerf to this would very likely result in a cry to nerf aircraft HP. Just buff the apache havoc and akula to 10HP.

Also, the 2800m ATGM is a feature of these helicopters. They lack AP, but they can snipe out light units, such as AA.
Still, if the AA attacks first it should win unless you get unlucky.

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Re: Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT

Postby Korochun » Sun 1 Sep 2013 15:59

overwhelming any reasonable AA


Replays?

As HATO, I got heli-rushed exactly once. It was a 3v1, and all my allies dropped, probably because I sucked. I was hit by over 50 combined Hinds, and was able to defeat most of them. This in fact almost won me the game, but I was an idiot and lost my cv to infantry.

So I have a tough time listening to people who say that a helicopter rush could defeat a reasonable AA network. Maybe you should play like most Soviet players and always look to the skies? As USSR, I start with 200 points of AA in most games. As HATO, I do the same.

Not to mention that a single Thunderbolt will end an entire early Hind rush all by itself, in roughly three passes. Take one if you are so deeply troubled by this.

Edit: oh yeah, forgot about the Nighthawk. Will also end a heli objective rush, and stop an actual Hind rush dead in its tracks, completely unopposed.

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Re: Suggestion to nerf Heli-meta & buff AAA - Long-ish, PACT

Postby Pomegranate23 » Sun 1 Sep 2013 17:32

What chopper meta? Make them any weaker and they will be useless

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