Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB in WAB!)*Update2*

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Re: Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB things in WAB!

Postby Joskip » Thu 23 May 2013 19:20

A few notes about the North Korean deck:

The BRM-1K and possibly BRDM-2U may be used, the Mi-26 however not. On the subject of supply trucks; since the Ural-375D and Ural-4320 are used as the base of the Grad we can assume North Korea has them, other trucks such as the T813 they don't. The Fagot (and so possibly the Konkurs) was first seen in 1992 and (unless you're stretching the time period) thus shouldn't be used, both SACLOS and MCLOS variants of the Malyutka however are in their inventory and can be used (including on vehicles). The PT-85 resembles the confusingly similarly named PT-85 more than the PT-71 does due to it's main gun calibre. The Biryusa I believe actually is in use in the DPRK. And why not use the AGS-17 (I don't know when they obtained them)?

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Re: Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB things in WAB!

Postby Graphic » Mon 27 May 2013 07:37

Are there any Belgians and/or Dutchmen who could come up with an appropriate 85-90ish deck for those countries, or even a deck representing both? I'd be grateful.
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Re: Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB things in WAB!

Postby Graphic » Wed 29 May 2013 02:01

Royal Netherlands Army

- Logistics -
M557 CV
Command Leopard 1, Leopard 2 or Centurion
Whatever trucks you want
Chinook ¹

- Infantry -

Canadian Rifles
Transport: M113A1 (YPR-765), AVGP Grizzly (YP-408)

Vandoos
Transport: M113A1 (YPR-765), AVGP Grizzly (YP-408)

MAW
Transport: M113A1 (YPR-765), AVGP Grizzly (YP-408)

LAAD Stinger
Transport: M113A1 (YPR-765), M998 Humvee (generic utility vehicle)

Light Riflemen ²
Transport: M35, M998 (generic trucks)

Royal Marines (Dutch Marines)
Transport: Pinzgauer or Saracen (make believe!)

- Support -

AMX 13 AU 105mm
M109
M270 MLRS
I-Hawk
Flakpanzer Gepard

- Tanks -

Leopard 2A4 (seriously)
Leopard 1A4 (Leo 1-NL)
Leopard 1A1 (Leo 1-NL)
Centurion 105mm

- Recon -

Alouette III
Bo-105CB
M113 ACAV
Rover Pinky
AMX-13/90 (stand-in for AMX-13/105)

- Vehicle -

Any regular TOW on a M113 chassis (look in Can, Nor, Den, etc.)

- Helicopter -

Bo 105P/PAH-1 ³

- Planes -

CF-116 (F-5) Freedom Fighter
F-16A Fighting Falcon (US variant highly recommended for its ECM rating)
F-104G Starfighter



Almost total credit goes to the poster cramble for providing the documents. I only read through them and copied down the units.

¹ Early 90s, consider it a prototype. Up to you.

² M47 Dragons were listed as being used by the Dutch and Light Riflemen are the only way to get them; it's up to you whether or not them having M16s is a problem.

³ Document listed Bo-105CB (recon variant), but referred to it as an "attack helicopter." Up to you.
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Re: Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB things in WAB!

Postby Koesj » Wed 29 May 2013 22:27

You got the gist of it Graphic but there's some opportunities for more 'realism':


- Infantry -

  • The YPR-765PRI infantry carrier is an IFV variant of the M113 (AIFV internationally, for the Belges and Turks). It's got a 25mm Oerlikon autocannon and has been uparmored compared to the baseline track with steel plates on the front and sides.
  • This is problematic; Dutch infantry needs to be represented with an autocannon APC/IFV, otherwise it loses a lot of its organic strength. Non-prototype inf+autocannon choices are Chasseurs/AMX-10P (SMG-armed, a no-go as far infantry equipment is concerned) PzGren+Marder 1 (G3/PzF/MG3 instead of FAL/Carlo/MAG, Marder probably too well armored) Pansarkytte/PBV 302A (maybe strange but possibly a good choice because of its STAT MG and middling vehicle) or Stormer/NM135 (a bit too strong of a squad for my tastes).
  • Simulating the YP-408 isn't going to be spotless either. The vehicle was old and the only good in-game analogues, especially cross-country speedwise, are the Saracen and the TGB m/42. Unfortunately those two come with twin GPMGs instead of an M2 but I feel that the Grizzly or the XA-180 are just too fast to convey the the YP-408's role: drop off infantry somewhere out of harms' way and bug out.
  • Therefore I'd propose to use Pansarkytte as the standard Dutch infantry. Sure, the Miniman is not as good as the Charlie Gutsache, but as an alternative something like the LAW has 1AP less, the squads don't deserve a CQC MG, and inf should be cheap and plentiful here.
  • Stingers should only come in trucks since that was their organic transport in the AA Batteries.
  • Light Riflemen are very much a flavor choice. Should come in an autocannon vehicle since the Dragons were in the PLs YPR-765PRCO though :(


- Support -

  • If you want to do a straight up~1985 deck I'd suggest taking the AMX-13 AU 105mm out, the last -13 variants were scrapped in '83, and putting M106 mortars in, they were carried by a couple of mobile formations (recce battalions IIRC).
  • I'd take out the MLRS since it only came into the Army in '89.
  • HAWK was part of the Air Force but since the only other AA options are Gepard and Stinger they should be kept around for playability reasons.


- Tanks -

  • The Leopard 2s should be the A1 version since the Dutch ones came out of Baulose (production runs) 2 and 3. Baulos 4 (12/84 - 12/85) was the A3 for the Bundeswehr (the A2s were upgraded baseline Leo 2s) and A4 production only started in december '85 with Baulos 5.
  • Maybe the Leopard 1A4 needs to be taken out since the 1V (verbeterd - upgraded) programme had massive problems until the late eighties. 1A1s are definitely needed though.


- Recon -

  • The M113 ACAV should rather be the EPBV3022 for its better optics, and even more importantly, the fact that the dutch M113 was the C&V version with an autocannon.
  • Again, I'd take the AMX-13 out of a 1985 deck.
  • I feel that some kind of long range recce/special forces team should be added to model either the 53 Ltverkbat or the 104 Wrnverkcie :ugeek:


- Vehicle -

  • The analogue for the YPR-765PWAT (AT variant) should carry an I-TOW and since it had the same Hammerhead launcher I'd suggest the M901 ITW
  • It's too bad there isn't a wheeled baseline TOW carrier around since that could've been a good stand-in for the YP-408 PWAT

e: I get most of my info from Hans Boersma's excellent TO&E page on his ORBAT85 site but there's some stuff out of Dutch language books I've got lying around too.

e2: Just remembered there were M110A2s in 108, 117 and 118 Field Artillery Battalion as well :shock:
Last edited by Koesj on Wed 29 May 2013 22:39, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB things in WAB!

Postby Apple pie » Wed 29 May 2013 22:31

dis will be fun :D :D :D :D :D

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Re: Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB things in WAB!

Postby cramble » Thu 30 May 2013 00:04

Oh nice post i need to say Koesj.
I got some things to add to this i mark them blue
Koesj wrote:- Infantry -

[*]This is problematic; Dutch infantry needs to be represented with an autocannon APC/IFV, otherwise it loses a lot of its organic strength. Non-prototype inf+autocannon choices are Chasseurs/AMX-10P (SMG-armed, a no-go as far infantry equipment is concerned) PzGren+Marder 1 (G3/PzF/MG3 instead of FAL/Carlo/MAG, Marder probably too well armored) Pansarkytte/PBV 302A (maybe strange but possibly a good choice because of its STAT MG and middling vehicle) or Stormer/NM135.
I edited it in a PM to Graphic its the closes you can get to a YPR the only real diffrents is the auto cannen is a 20mm on a NM135 and on the ypr is a 25mm. There is this Danish APC (forgot the name.) that has the right cannon only its a prototype and not to be used outside a Danish deck.

[*]Simulating the YP-408 isn't going to be spotless either. The vehicle was old and the only good in-game analogues, especially cross-country speedwise, are the Saracen and the TGB m/42. Unfortunately those two come with twin GPMGs instead of an M2 but I feel that the Grizzly or the XA-180 are just too fast to convey the the YP-408's role: drop off infantry somewhere out of harms' way and bug out.
The Saracen sould still be viable enough to be use mainly because of the British infantry is the closest you are getting to dutch infantry. Same is with the Canadian and its Grizzly we or he i sould say think this is the best LOOK a LIke but maybe not so well as a comparisment speed wise. There for i think its still a viable option to take but in my deck i use the m113's for it.

[*]Stingers should only come in trucks since that was their organic transport in the AA Batteries.
I agree, however i still think the m113 is still a vehicle you can prefer, as in war time any vehicle could be used in means of transporting units to the front also armed with stingers.

- Support -

  • If you want to do a straight up~1985 deck I'd suggest taking the AMX-13 AU 105mm out, the last -13 variants were scrapped in '83, and putting M106 mortars in, they were carried by a couple of mobile formations (recce battalions IIRC).
    Its still a option after 1985 they where still in use by some reservist units till they all got replaced by M109's.
  • I'd take out the MLRS since it only came into the Army in '89.
    88 to be exact but you cant have it as a optional prototype unit. The American M109A6 Paladin only got into full production in the 90's and its still a prototype in the game.
  • I-HAWK was part of the Air Force but since the only other AA options are Gepard and Stinger they should be kept around for playability reasons.
Even do these where used by the airforce these where on the frontlines defending the airspace. Same as they where defending the airfields in other parts of west Germany until we where replacing them with MIM-104 Patriot system.

For support i got also a unit to add the PzMrs M113 120mm mortar carrier.
Because we had a specific vehicle to tow it that is basically the same vehicle as the PzMrs M113. (YPR-765 prmr (pantser-rups-mortiertrekker) — tractor for MO-120-RT 120-mm mortar (mortiertrekker = mortar tractor) with .50-caliber M2 HB machine gun on M26 cupola; crew of seven, including mortarmen; rear compartment has inward-facing, three-seat bench on left and mortar ammunition rack on right.)
It is specific for towing the Mo 120 mm mortar but because there are no towed units in Airland Battles it will now be in the back and also with a 50cal on the top if im not mistaken.



- Tanks -

  • The Leopard 2s should be the A1 version since the Dutch ones came out of Baulose (production runs) 2 and 3. Baulos 4 (12/84 - 12/85) was the A3 for the Bundeswehr (the A2s were upgraded baseline Leo 2s) and A4 production only started in december '85 with Baulos 5.
    Indeed leopards 2A1 sould be in the list aswell as the main battle tank. Leopard2A4 is more going to be like a prototype unit for a Dutch deck.
  • Maybe the Leopard 1A4 needs to be taken out since the 1V (verbeterd - upgraded) programme had massive problems until the late eighties. 1A1s are definitely needed though.
Still the leopard 1A2 or even 1A3 can be taken because not all things faulted in the upgrade project. At the time not all problems where solved we where already beginning with replacing many of or leopard1 with 2's. Maybe the upgraded leopards from the Scandinavian country's could be a viable place holder.


- Recon -

  • The M113 ACAV should rather be the EPBV3022 for its better optics, and even more importantly, the fact that the dutch M113 was the C&V version with an autocannon.
    Rather then going for the EPBV i sugest to remove the m113 ACAV and replace it with the M113 C&R LYNX as we used 250 of those vehicles. Also adding in the M151a2 Mutt and Ferret MK.1 in as we used both of these aswell for a long period of time.
  • Again, I'd take the AMX-13 out of a 1985 deck.
    Its not a 1985 specific deck its just a general what can i use for a dutch deck. Maybe adding in time periods later on could be a nice addition, but first adding in the used vehicles should be more usefull and easy. So we can make time frames after that.
  • I feel that some kind of long range recce/special forces team should be added to model either the 53 Ltverkbat or the 104 Wrnverkcie :ugeek:
The only other recon unit that has the same equipment as the Dutch would have used are the Green Jackets, they arnt maybe special forces but they can still do the job.


- Vehicle -

  • The analogue for the YPR-765PWAT (AT variant) should carry an I-TOW and since it had the same Hammerhead launcher I'd suggest the M901 ITW
    I posted this also in the PM as we also had some earlier versions without the I-Tow using the normal launchers as a open top fixed gun.
  • It's too bad there isn't a wheeled baseline TOW carrier around since that could've been a good stand-in for the YP-408 PWAT
Yes indeed however because we used tows on Mud vehicles adding in the m151a2 tow / m151a2 I-tow is a different but still effective replacement.

e2: Just remembered there were M110A2s in 108, 117 and 118 Field Artillery Battalion as well :shock:
I posted this aswell, we used a good amount of them to replace the older M107's.


The rest i posted i hope Graphic is posting in his main post.
And thanks again for making this post with a nice new national deck (not complete but almost perfect.) for people to use.
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Re: Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB things in WAB!

Postby Koesj » Thu 30 May 2013 00:48

Ahh now we get to the meat of it :) I'd go for any kind of infantry flavor as long as their vehicle is armed with an autocannon, M113A1s don't really do a proper paninfbat justice :) Anyway, it's late, so maybe I'm misremembering some stuff but here's to double-checking:

With AMX-13 based vehicles, I guess at least the 105mm and recon versions should be in, plus maybe some kind of suitable HMG APC as a substitute for the PRI version. Oh wait, I don't think there is :?

The 109th Field Artillery Battery was only stood up in '89 and while the MLRS order was placed in '88 I can't find anything solid wrt deliveries. Oh well, put it in anyway we need the best arty there is haha.

Are you sure the Dutch Leo 2'A1's ever got upgraded to the A4 version before KWS (resulting in A5) was decided on in '91? They replaced Centurions in numbers but indeed Leo 1s in units (and I guess I agree on something like one of the scandinavian ones as a substitute); maybe people can try and stick to two out of 3.5 tank types as a house rule if they want to do a proper realistic deck?

Isn't the Canadian recce M113 called C&R now instead of Lynx (and was it ever armed with an autocannon in-game)? The difference between an HMG or AC one is pretty big.

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Re: Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB things in WAB!

Postby cramble » Thu 30 May 2013 06:54

Koesj wrote:Ahh now we get to the meat of it :) I'd go for any kind of infantry flavor as long as their vehicle is armed with an autocannon, M113A1s don't really do a proper paninfbat justice :) Anyway, it's late, so maybe I'm misremembering some stuff but here's to double-checking.
yes well it is based on the m113 but the nm norwegian one is the only one there is that is almost perfect.

Are you sure the Dutch Leo 2'A1's ever got upgraded to the A4 version before KWS (resulting in A5) was decided on in '91? They replaced Centurions in numbers but indeed Leo 1s in units (and I guess I agree on something like one of the scandinavian ones as a substitute); maybe people can try and stick to two out of 3.5 tank types as a house rule if they want to do a proper realistic deck?
We orderd up some leopards2a4 in 1985. So as a prototype it is still a good option.

Isn't the Canadian recce M113 called C&R now instead of Lynx (and was it ever armed with an autocannon in-game)? The difference between an HMG or AC one is pretty big.

The dutch army used both the autocannon and 50cal one, but ingame there is only the 50cal unit as the canadian only used the 50 version.
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Re: Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB things in WAB!

Postby Graphic » Thu 30 May 2013 07:42

Thanks for the info. I'll go through my post and change it tomorrow. If you guys have your own feel free to post them :)
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Re: Historical Deck Resource (Playing non-WAB things in WAB!

Postby Koesj » Thu 30 May 2013 09:31

cramble wrote:The dutch army used both the autocannon and 50cal one, but ingame there is only the 50cal unit as the canadian only used the 50 version.


I'd suppose there should be an autocannon recon vehicle anyway, bugger if it's based on another vehicle but there were 3/4*36 C&Rs in the Recce Battalions, and 9*6 more in the brigades, so it's a capability that ought to be modeled in.

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