Fine-tuning NK/China

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HrcAk47
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby HrcAk47 » Sun 15 Jan 2017 15:29

T-85-III.

Here we see the (Yugoslav) command panel for the ballistic computer :D
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The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

SMB Yugoslavia Retexture Mod, now released, v.1.0

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keldon
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 15 Jan 2017 16:53

OK guys, thank to the new pics, i'm thinking updating the first post entry about the 85-III

First, originally we only have these rather blurry images available:

Image
Image

However thx to nuke92 and HrcAK47 we got hold of more clear pic of the side and roof of the tank:

(pic are too big to be embedded)
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg53 ... 6/15-1.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg53 ... 6/11-1.jpg

The ERA used would be FY-1 and 2 which is also used on ZTZ-59D from 1995. It should be noted that FY-1 and 2 are both used at the same time, just applied to different section, this is known from ZTZ-59D.

The ERA itself is not well discussed, so most data (if any) is to be taken with a grain of salt. However i'd like to point out that China got access to T-80U and Kontakt-5 in the early 90s, so the following claims are reasonable in my eye.

I think the numbers are easy enough to see and doesn't require translation.
http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_3805282_1.html
我国的反应装甲

FY系列爆炸反应装甲

FY-1:抗HEAT-200毫米

FY-2:抗HEAT-200毫米,抗APFSDS-220毫米

FY-3:抗HEAT-400毫米

FY-4:抗HEAT-400毫米,抗APFSDS-400毫米


Family picture of the ERA:

Image

My target was an up-valued tank in the region of 155 pts, first let us look at the current contender at this price point:

M1A1(HC): 65% acc; 22 AP; Armor 20/8/4/4; 9 rpm; 65 km/h
STRV 121: 65% acc; 23 AP; Armor 19/9/4/3; 9 rpm; 70 km/h
Merkava IIIB: 65% acc; 20 AP; Armor 21/7/4/4; 10 rpm; 60 km/h; frigging grenade launcher...
PT-91 Twardy: 60% acc; 22 AP; Armor 20/10/4/4; 9 rpm; 60 km/h


The new ZTZ-85-III: 65% acc; 23 AP; Armor 20/8/3/4; 8 rpm; 70 km/h

- The AP is based on the chinese second gen DU round, which is assumed to be perform much better than the 600mm pen on 2000m standard issue full tungsten penetrator.

- The armor is based on the FY series of ERA, assuming the turret is getting FY-2 with 220mm against APFSDS. Technically this will put 85-III on super heavy level of armor if we go by the nacked standard armor of 520mm from 85-IIM (a.k.a ZTZ-96) adding further the 220mm. But for the targeted price and the flavor of lesser overall armor, it is ok i think.

- 8 rpm is self explaining, since literally every chinese source is saying it and most similar T-72 are slinging 8 to 9 rounds.

- Speed is justified by the 1000 hp engine and the weight of around 43 tons


Finally i'd like to stress again: Do not undervalue rpm, it is an important component of damage dealing capability!
Image
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Bougnas
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Sun 15 Jan 2017 16:59

Sounds good.
Image

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Demonicjapsel » Sun 15 Jan 2017 17:08

keldon wrote:OK guys, thank to the new pics, i'm thinking updating the first post entry about the 85-III

First, originally we only have these rather blurry images available:

Image
Image

However thx to nuke92 and HrcAK47 we got hold of more clear pic of the side and roof of the tank:

(pic are too big to be embedded)
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg53 ... 6/15-1.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg53 ... 6/11-1.jpg

The ERA used would be FY-1 and 2 which is also used on ZTZ-59D from 1995. It should be noted that FY-1 and 2 are both used at the same time, just applied to different section, this is known from ZTZ-59D.

The ERA itself is not well discussed, so most data (if any) is to be taken with a grain of salt. However i'd like to point out that China got access to T-80U and Kontakt-5 in the early 90s, so the following claims are reasonable in my eye.

I think the numbers are easy enough to see and doesn't require translation.
http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_3805282_1.html
我国的反应装甲

FY系列爆炸反应装甲

FY-1:抗HEAT-200毫米

FY-2:抗HEAT-200毫米,抗APFSDS-220毫米

FY-3:抗HEAT-400毫米

FY-4:抗HEAT-400毫米,抗APFSDS-400毫米


Family picture of the ERA:

Image

My target was an up-valued tank in the region of 155 pts, first let us look at the current contender at this price point:

M1A1(HC): 65% acc; 22 AP; Armor 20/8/4/4; 9 rpm; 65 km/h
STRV 121: 65% acc; 23 AP; Armor 19/9/4/3; 9 rpm; 70 km/h
Merkava IIIB: 65% acc; 20 AP; Armor 21/7/4/4; 10 rpm; 60 km/h; frigging grenade launcher...
PT-91 Twardy: 60% acc; 22 AP; Armor 20/10/4/4; 9 rpm; 60 km/h


The new ZTZ-85-III: 65% acc; 23 AP; Armor 20/8/3/4; 8 rpm; 70 km/h

- The AP is based on the chinese second gen DU round, which is assumed to be perform much better than the 600mm pen on 2000m standard issue full tungsten penetrator.

- The armor is based on the FY series of ERA, assuming the turret is getting FY-2 with 220mm against APFSDS. Technically this will put 85-III on super heavy level of armor if we go by the nacked standard armor of 520mm from 85-IIM (a.k.a ZTZ-96) adding further the 220mm. But for the targeted price and the flavor of lesser overall armor, it is ok i think.

- 8 rpm is self explaining, since literally every chinese source is saying it and most similar T-72 are slinging 8 to 9 rounds.

- Speed is justified by the 1000 hp engine and the weight of around 43 tons


Finally i'd like to stress again: Do not undervalue rpm, it is an important component of damage dealing capability!


looks good.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby codextero » Sun 15 Jan 2017 17:15

1 RPM is not worth 1 AP/AV. With those stats it's an easy contender for 160 points, considering it's only disadvantage from the Moderna is 1 AV, but also has 15% more accuracy.

Currently it has that 1 AP/AV advantage, but it's got 7 RPM and also is a slower tank than it's peers.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 15 Jan 2017 17:33

Further i'd like to add to the ATGM talk of the past days.

I'll summarize the known data on YJ-7 or rather C701, since it is purely marketed as export and still isn't in PLA inventory to this day.

http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 20140.html
- Debuted in end 90s, presumed on Zhuhai 1998.
- Primarily designed as a ship launched anti-ship missile
- Able to be used as air launched anti-ground missile
- exported to Iran and called Kosar
- Missile is primarily TV guided, but an IR imaging and milimeter wave radar active homing seeker are also available
- Missile is small with 2,5m length and only 180mm diameter, warhead is 29kg semi AP, range is 15 km and standard targets are torpedo boats.


Frankly this shouldn't be added in the game, but considering the situation of RD when DLC 2 was around... the only ATGM are those lolwut MiG-21 from NK...

Well, whatever. Solutions has been offered which are imo rather easy to do. I personally don't know about the Kh-31 as ATGM, i still think finding and tracking a small tanksized target without any radiation would be difficult for the seeker. I'm waiting on Xeno for his knowledge.

Another thing is the RD recon tank situation, I'm not even talking about the ZTQ-62G, but rather the low cost armed ones. Since the T-55 all got a much needed 8 rpm the normal ZTQ line lost the main advantage of high rpm. The ZTQ-62-I especially are losing to recon tanks in same pricepoint, like the german leo 1 or the blazer. This situation also extends to the 20 pts one and the triple nerfed type-63.

I think a 5 pts price cut to ZTQ-62, ZTQ-62-I and type-63 can certainly help the RD recon tab.

btw. the ZTQ-62-I lacks the cage on the model...

http://i.imgur.com/l2l3Bd2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NSlyahg.jpg

When talking about recon i think the ZTQ-62G/ZTS-63A using the same FCS as ZTZ-88B should go up in accuracy.

Opinions?
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 15 Jan 2017 17:50

codextero wrote:1 RPM is not worth 1 AP/AV. With those stats it's an easy contender for 160 points, considering it's only disadvantage from the Moderna is 1 AV, but also has 15% more accuracy.

Currently it has that 1 AP/AV advantage, but it's got 7 RPM and also is a slower tank than it's peers.


First, please don't use Moderna's accuracy as a benchmark, it is like using the T-80U's accuracy to keep other tanks down.

8 rpm puts out 12% less damage. This is arguably less important when people are using peek-a-boo tactic, but there are times when you are using your tanks to clean up stuff and duking it out with other heavies. That's the time when you appreciate the extra rpm.

Finally before you are using "muh poor BD/USA" as the trump card. I have a BD thread where i suggested K1A1 receive the same DM53 ammo as Kyu-Maru (which they didn't got IRL) with NO additional cost increase. And i seriously hope you are not going to compare USA to RD in terms of options and viability.
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> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Sun 15 Jan 2017 17:55

keldon wrote:
Another thing is the RD recon tank situation, I'm not even talking about the ZTQ-62G, but rather the low cost armed ones. Since the T-55 all got a much needed 8 rpm the normal ZTQ line lost the main advantage of high rpm. The ZTQ-62-I especially are losing to recon tanks in same pricepoint, like the german leo 1 or the blazer. This situation also extends to the 20 pts one and the triple nerfed type-63.

I think a 5 pts price cut to ZTQ-62, ZTQ-62-I and type-63 can certainly help the RD recon tab.

btw. the ZTQ-62-I lacks the cage on the model...

http://i.imgur.com/l2l3Bd2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NSlyahg.jpg

When talking about recon i think the ZTQ-62G/ZTS-63A using the same FCS as ZTZ-88B should go up in accuracy.

Opinions?


#MakeRDmodelsgreatagain

The base ZTQ could probably get a price buff to 15 althought I don't exactly remember how it compares to the PT-76 (is this even 15pts?). It has better armor and mobility, but has a poor range and lower AP (Ke tho) so I think that it would still be fine.

Do you remember if the ZTQ-62-I gets better gun stats over the ZTS-63 and if the latter has better gun stats than the NK Type 63?
If not, the LRF could give it a +5% accuracy and/or better range (accuracy would be more logical as this gun remains a 85mm from the late 70s).
The cost could be buffed to 25 as it's not that strong anymore compared to recon T-55s (that could be buffed to T-55A stats btw, with the NK one getting a KPVT for free) anyway.

The ZTS-63 used by China could also get the same accuracy buff as the ZTS-63-II version got the LRF as well.

As for the NK Type 63, if it's 25pts it could go to 20.

An accuracy boost for the ZTQ-62G would make it more worth it's price indeed, and the ZTS-63-II (should be renamed to ZTS-63A) should get the same buff as it used the same turret. It would actually be a great improvement and would show the chinese emphasis on accuracy.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 15 Jan 2017 18:22

Bougnas wrote:#MakeRDmodelsgreatagain

The base ZTQ could probably get a price buff to 15 althought I don't exactly remember how it compares to the PT-76 (is this even 15pts?). It has better armor and mobility, but has a poor range and lower AP (Ke tho) so I think that it would still be fine.

Do you remember if the ZTQ-62-I gets better gun stats over the ZTS-63 and if the latter has better gun stats than the NK Type 63?
If not, the LRF could give it a +5% accuracy and/or better range (accuracy would be more logical as this gun remains a 85mm from the late 70s).
The cost could be buffed to 25 as it's not that strong anymore compared to recon T-55s (that could be buffed to T-55A stats btw, with the NK one getting a KPVT for free) anyway.

The ZTS-63 used by China could also get the same accuracy buff as the ZTS-63-II version got the LRF as well.

As for the NK Type 63, if it's 25pts it could go to 20.

An accuracy boost for the ZTQ-62G would make it more worth it's price indeed, and the ZTS-63-II (should be renamed to ZTS-63A) should get the same buff as it used the same turret. It would actually be a great improvement and would show the chinese emphasis on accuracy.


The normal ZTQ-62 is 1700m range, 35% acc and 8 AP KE gun at 20 pts. Compared to PT-76 at 15 pts it has 5% less accuracy, 2 less AP (although ZTQ has KE, but to do the same damage the enemy needs to be close to 1200m), oh and it got an mg. So technically better in firesupport.

The ZTQ-62-I has 5% better accuracy over both the ZTS-63-I and NK type-63, which due to the laser rangefinder is ok, i think. However the ZTS-63-I really should also get a 5% acc boost due to the laserrangefidner, which eugen didn't model (cause the whole turret is wrong). But generally ZTQ-62-I has less armor, no stabilizer and the same AP as standard RedFor recon T-55. It is however much worse than the more commonly seen 30 pts recon tank.

The NK recon T-55 only got a Dshk with 300 rounds, not that big of a deal i think.

Both unicorn light tanks really should get decent accuracy, considering the same FCS as 88B and the intro date of those units.

I'll update the first post later.
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> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Xeno426 » Sun 15 Jan 2017 18:49

keldon wrote:
Xeno426 wrote:ping


Hey, can you share some opinions on the Kh-31 stuff steamfunk posted few posts above? Is it able to do ATGM task? I somehow have my doubts, since the radar should have issue of tracking small moving targets.

Um, not good against a small target. I mean, it has a minimum launch range that's several kilometers. Further, as an anti-ship missile, the flight profile is sea-skimming which wouldn't help it against a small target. That kind of profile suggests that it uses radar to skim along the surface and uses INS until it comes to the expected position of the ship, where it would search for the designated target. Trying to do the same thing for a ground target would be far more difficult due to the amount of false returns.

Using it as an ATGM would be unlikely to work. Maybe against a large target like a bridge, but keep in mind the seeker was still optimized for finding a large metal target on a background of flat water.
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