Fine-tuning NK/China

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Tamerlane92
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Tamerlane92 » Fri 10 Feb 2017 11:14

Authentic suggestion of unit names.

keldon wrote:Chŏngguktae


I cannot guess where it came from. Chŏngguk(정국) means 'political situation' in Korean.
If it have to be distinguished with Chŏngch'altae, I suggest Ch'ŏkhutae(척후대, 斥候隊).

keldon wrote:Hwaryok-jiwon-ban


NK's anti-tank tactics separated with Ban-tank-Hwagi - AT missiles and Tando-Hwagi - LAW.
Ban(班) is SK unit system. NK use Cho(組).
So, FiST using RPG have to be named as Tando-hwagi-Cho.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby frostypooky » Fri 10 Feb 2017 14:08

>Chongguktae

북의 '정찰총국'은 90년대에 '정찰국'이였다

'정찰국' 줄여서 '정국대'로 정찰국요원을 지정 할 수 있어요

(The North's Chongchalchongguk (Recon General Bureau) was just Chongchalguk (Recon Bureau) in the 90s.

You can designate Recon Bureau agents as 'Chongguktae' by shortening from Chongchalguk)

>Ban

글쎄 , 조선말에도 쓰는 것 같은데요, 제가 직장에 조영사전 있어서 확인해볼께요

(Well idk, I'm pretty sure they use it in North Korean too, I have a NK Kor-En dictionary at work so I'll have to check it out)
Last edited by frostypooky on Fri 10 Feb 2017 16:41, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby CandyMan » Fri 10 Feb 2017 14:29

frostypooky wrote:
>Ban

글쎄 , 조선말에도 쓰는 것 같은데요, 제가 직장에 조영사전 있어서 확인해볼께요


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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby frostypooky » Fri 10 Feb 2017 16:00

followup on 'ban'

조영대사전 (NK's official Korean-English dictionary):

'반' (ban)
1. a team, a unit, a party, a circle, a company, a group, a set, a class, a section
[Relevant] Examples:
구호반 (kuhoban): a relief squad
작업반 (chakopban): a working party
인민반 (inminban): a neighborhood squad


Jo/cho/조 is acceptable as a small team measurement, too, but "Ban(班) is SK unit system" is not true

Tando/탄도 (ballistic) is, in context, used primarily for missiles, and more specifically ballistic missiles of SCUD variety, so its better to stay as 'Hwaryokchiwon-pan/cho' (fire support team).

the more common NK term for an infantry rocket launcher is Roketu-pho/로케트포. hwagi/화기 is a bit more formal but acceptable in place of pho/포.

also, saw you asked about Kyojitae/교지대:

shortened from Kyodo-Jido-Guk/도국, the Training Guidance Bureau, the 90s name of NK's discrete SOF organization.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Tamerlane92 » Fri 10 Feb 2017 19:15

frostypooky wrote:>Chongguktae
The North's Chongchalchongguk (Recon General Bureau) was just Chongchalguk (Recon Bureau) in the 90s.
You can designate Recon Bureau agents as 'Chongguktae' by shortening from Chongchalguk


viewtopic.php?f=155&p=401375#p401375
May you know, Unit of Chongchalguk = Chongchalchongguk is already in-game unit. Jeongchaldae. Is it really okay to make another unit, just with reading its name differently?

And, have you ever googled that '정국대' used IRL? Will you show any link to believe it is really available name?

>Ban
Well idk, I'm pretty sure they use it in North Korean too, I have a NK Kor-En dictionary at work so I'll have to check it out
...
Jo/cho/조 is acceptable as a small team measurement, too, but "Ban(班) is SK unit system" is not true


It doesn't show that KPA use '반', but I'll pass it for now.

Tando/탄도 (ballistic) is


Nope, Tando is 단도(斷道), not 탄도(T'ando or Thando彈道) - means 'cut(단斷) track/caterpillar(도道 from 궤도(軌道))'. and 단도화기(Tando-Hwagi, 斷道火器) means 'Firearms for cutting track' - to immobilize tanks.

hwagi/화기 is a bit more formal but acceptable in place of pho/포.


포(砲) means cannon/artillery, and 로케트-포 means rocket artillery, not rocket launcher that inf can carrying. (rocket) launcher is '발사관(Palsa'gwan發射-管)' and 화기 is much shorter than 발사관.

also, saw you asked about Kyojitae/교지대:

shortened from Kyodo-Jido-Guk/도국, the Training Guidance Bureau, the 90s name of NK's discrete SOF organization.

frostypooky wrote:ROK infantry model -> new Elite Recon 10man Kyojitae


Please make it confirmed. SK or NK?

And, TUGB(경보교도지도국) is joint command of KPA SOFs(like USSOCOM, but not include Recon Bureau's SOFs).
Gongbobyong(Kyŏngbobyŏng) & Yuckjeondae(Hanggong-ryukjŏndae) - those are in-game units - are under its command. but there are no 'kyojitae' or similar named organisation.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%BB%BD ... E%E5%B1%80

http://kookbang.dema.mil.kr/kookbangWeb ... 0000000203
현재 예하 특수전부대로는 ‘저격여단’ ‘경보병여단’ ‘군단 정찰대대’ 등이 있으며 해·공군의 통제를 받는 ‘해상저격여단’ ‘공군저격여단’도 경보교도지도국 소속은 아니지만 특수부대다.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby chainsaw » Fri 10 Feb 2017 21:38

keldon wrote:
chainsaw wrote:How about an elite CAT C squad?


Dunno, while NK SOF can be considered elite or shock, i'd rather Gonbobyong not being priced 25 pts and get a hefty availbility cut with their current shitty loadout.

To make them decent elite recon, some better equipment should be handed out. At this point it is like asking eugen staff to sacrifice their firstborn. I'll be fully happy when eugen just do the infantry shifting, which would already be a huge help.


Because of its shit-load, I mean shit AT asset, It could be 'cheap' elite recon I suppose.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby frostypooky » Fri 10 Feb 2017 22:03

May you know, Unit of Chongchalguk = Chongchalchongguk is already in-game unit. Jeongchaldae. Is it really okay to make another unit, just with reading its name differently?


yes, because i suggested a new line/shock recon unit that will take the Jeongchaldae name to represent division-subordinate recon battalions. therefore the existing Jeongchaldae would have to change names to avoid overlap.

And, have you ever googled that '정국대' used IRL? Will you show any link to believe it is really available name?


it's a Korean-style abbreviation of an organization name given to you by a professionally qualified North Korean translator. you can take the first syllable of each component of a compound noun to abbreviate. eg 보건복지부 -> 보복부, this is often done with org names with three or more compound elements.


Nope, Tando is 단도(斷道), not 탄도(T'ando or Thando彈道) - means 'cut(단斷) track/caterpillar(도道 from 궤도(軌道))'. and 단도화기(Tando-Hwagi, 斷道火器) means 'Firearms for cutting track' - to immobilize tanks.


never heard of this being used for a RPG. doesn't exist in any of the NK dictionaries/glossaries i have. KPA pretty much universally calls them "rocketu" nowadays. its just one of those rare loan words that caught on in the KPA like Tangku and Shocku (as in heart attack, 아이고 중대장 동지가 심장쇼크 먹었어)

포(砲) means cannon/artillery, and 로케트-포 means rocket artillery, not rocket launcher that inf can carrying. (rocket) launcher is '발사관(Palsa'gwan發射-管)' and 화기 is much shorter than 발사관.


Po/포 is used by North Koreans for many non-cannon/artillery. Susongpo/수송포 (their ATGM), bibanchongpo/비반총포 (RR), hwapo/화포 (lesser used term for firearm), shinpo/신포 (signal gun), for example. rocket-po/로케트포 is not 'rocket artillery' by itself, bangsa-po/방사포 is the NK term for virtually all of their rocket artillery since it is all MRL anyway. 'rocket' for anything other than RPGs is virtually only seen to describe their Taepodong SLVs.

And, TUGB(경보교도지도국) is joint command of KPA SOFs(like USSOCOM, but not include Recon Bureau's SOFs).
Gongbobyong(Kyŏngbobyŏng) & Yuckjeondae(Hanggong-ryukjŏndae) - those are in-game units - are under its command. but there are no 'kyojitae' or similar named organisation.


directly assigned to the TUGB are 3 Sniper Bdes, 4 Light Infantry Brigades, and 3 Airborne Light Infantry Brigades. these units all share an airborne strategic SOF mission, and are the ones trained on South Korean equipment these are not currently represented in the game unless you want to count the Yuckjeondae, so that is why i proposed Kyojitae as a unit to represent all 10 of the TUGB discrete brigades which have the same strategic mission. should be elite.

under the purview of the TUGB but assigned to the KPA infantry divisions are Recon Battalions, as i noted in the first part of the reply. this would be a separate unit. which is why i had to change name Jeongchaldae in my proposal--these would be a new Chongchaldae (Jeongchaldae) line/shock recon unit.

also under the purview of the TUGB but assigned to the KPA infantry corps are more Light Infantry battalions. these do not have the same strategic mission as the TUGB Light Infantry brigades and are mostly tactical/operational mobility-mission shock troops (eg actual light infantry). in game these are reflected by Gyongbobyong buffed with additional transport availability.

not under the purview of the TUGB are the two Naval Sniper Brigades and two Air Force Sniper Brigades you and i both mentioned. these do not have the same mission as the TUGB Sniper brigades, hence why they and Kyojitae should be represented as different units. these would be represented by current Jeogockdae unit upped to elite.

and of course there is the Recon Bureau which would be Jeongchaldae but as I mentioned they need to be renamed if line/shock recon infantry were added.

i will provide sources as i find time, as well as provide quals to speak on NK OOB.
Last edited by frostypooky on Fri 10 Feb 2017 22:51, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 10 Feb 2017 22:14

chainsaw wrote:Because of its shit-load, I mean shit AT asset, It could be 'cheap' elite recon I suppose.


I thought about it when i came up with the shifting idea, but ultimately the inevitable price increase to 25 is the deal breaker for me, which it will get if turned into elite. As elite infantry it will basically be roughly on par with canadian pathfinders (if eugen fixes the type-73 mg...), the AT weapon offers more standoff but has horrible AP/rpm otherwise.

It's not like pathfinders are good elite infantry and you pay 25 pts for them... the same would also apply to Gonbobyong when they get promoted into elite. At least at shock you can buy more of them and don't pay extra and they are filling into the CAT C shock recon kinda as "Lie Ren '75" in a coalition deck.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Tamerlane92 » Sat 11 Feb 2017 06:32

Spoiler : for the thread readability :
frostypooky wrote:
May you know, Unit of Chongchalguk = Chongchalchongguk is already in-game unit. Jeongchaldae. Is it really okay to make another unit, just with reading its name differently?

yes, because i suggested a new line/shock recon unit that will take the Jeongchaldae name to represent division-subordinate recon battalions. therefore the existing Jeongchaldae would have to change names to avoid overlap.


but it is not enough reason to use name that not authentic name. Don't create unreal thing.
Some NK SOF names will be at end of this post.

' "정국대" ' search result : 6490 - include '정국'(polictical situation) & person's name
' "정찰대" ' search result : 127,000



it's a Korean-style abbreviation of an organization name given to you by a professionally qualified North Korean translator. you can take the first syllable of each component of a compound noun to abbreviate.


This is right. but,

보건복지부 -> 보복부, this is often done with org names with three or more compound elements.

it is 50/50 right. because, in Korean, if the shorten word is similar with other (bad or funny) word, it used to avoid it and calling other names. Google search result will show how often it used.
' 복지부 -보건복지부 ' search result : 402,000
' 보건부 ' search result : 416,000
' 보복부 ' search result : 57,500

for example,
교육인적자원부 -> 교인자부(x, not 3 character), 교자부(x, 교자 seems similar with 'Jiaozi' Dumpling), 교육부(o), 인적부(x, '인적자원'(human resource) have to be deal with together)
보건복지부 -> 보복부(x, 보복 seems 'Revenge'), 보건부(o), 복지부(o)



Nope, Tando is 단도(斷道), not 탄도(T'ando or Thando彈道) - means 'cut(단斷) track/caterpillar(도道 from 궤도(軌道))'. and 단도화기(Tando-Hwagi, 斷道火器) means 'Firearms for cutting track' - to immobilize tanks.

never heard of this being used for a RPG. doesn't exist in any of the NK dictionaries/glossaries i have. KPA pretty much universally calls them "rocketu" nowadays. its just one of those rare loan words that caught on in the KPA like Tangku and Shocku (as in heart attack, 아이고 중대장 동지가 심장쇼크 먹었어)


This word can be confirmed by Journal of SK Ministry of Defense - Kookbangilbo, with some variation like '단도저격조', '단도화기 사격조', etc. if you think you are well-known about KPA even more than ROKA('s CO personnel), I have no idea.


http://kookbang.dema.mil.kr/kookbangWeb ... 0000000245
적 단도화기 사격조, 소부대 집중사격구역 극복, 땅크 사냥꾼조 격멸 등 적 소부대 전술을 이해함으로써 전투 간 적의 움직임을 예상하고 기도를 판단할 수 있으며, 이에 합당한 아(我) 대응이 나오게 된다.

http://kookbang.dema.mil.kr/kookbangWeb ... 0000000004
이어 목표지역 기동에서는 적 전투경계 조우, 적 단도화기조 조우, 장애물지대 봉착 등의 과제가 부여된다.





Po/포 is used by North Koreans for many non-cannon/artillery. Susongpo/수송포 (their ATGM), bibanchongpo/비반총포 (RR), hwapo/화포 (lesser used term for firearm), shinpo/신포 (signal gun), for example. rocket-po/로케트포 is not 'rocket artillery' by itself, bangsa-po/방사포 is the NK term for virtually all of their rocket artillery since it is all MRL anyway. 'rocket' for anything other than RPGs is virtually only seen to describe their Taepodong SLVs.

*p.s. Susongpo is 수포 and Bibanchungpo is 비반포.


So, you still can't prove that '로케트포' meaning RPG, right?

https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7
조선민주주의인민공화국(일명 북한) 은 “7호 발사관”이라는 이름으로 운용 중이다.

https://nkaggregator.com/2008/04/19/%EB ... %EB%A1%9C/

(평양 4월 18일발 조선중앙통신)18일부 《민주조선》은 《비렬한자들의 유치한 모략선전》이라는 제목으로 된 다음과 같은 개인필명의 론평을 실었다.
일본반동들이 대조선적대시정책의 도수를 높이고있다.
얼마전 일본의 NHK방송을 비롯한 보도물들은 우리 나라가 동남아시아의 어느한 나라에 다량의 《로케트포들을 수출》하였다는 허황한 여론을 대대적으로 류포시키면서 반공화국선전깜빠니야에 열을 올리고있다.


this '《로케트포수출》설' means,

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countri ... tones.html

March 2008: A shipment containing 5,000 detonating fuses for unguided rockets and related materiel is seized en route from North Korea to Iran. The shipper is affiliated with Korea Mining and Development Corporation (KOMID), North Korea's primary exporter of ballistic missile-related equipment and conventional weapons. The consignee is affiliated with Iran's Shahid Bagheri Industries Group (SBIG).


it is.
so, '로케트포' is not RPG at least. and (로케트)발사관 & 단도화기 is more accurate name.



not under the purview of the TUGB are the two Naval Sniper Brigades and two Air Force Sniper Brigades you and i both mentioned. these do not have the same mission as the TUGB Sniper brigades, hence why they and Kyojitae should be represented as different units. these would be represented by current Jeogockdae unit upped to elite.


Then you have to suggest to add that 해상저격여단(해상저격대=Jeogockdae ingame) or 공군저격여단(공군저격대), not to make silly unit that can compare with like 'we already have Ranger, Delta Force, SEALs but add USSOCOM plz'
or, if you want to add TUGB Sniper brigades(경보교도지도국 저격여단 aka 교도저격대), don't MAKE name with your FLAVOR and don't abandon genuine name.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby frostypooky » Sat 11 Feb 2017 08:42

Spoiler : minimizing for the benefit of the thread :
it is 50/50 right. because, in Korean, if the shorten word is similar with other (bad or funny) word, it used to avoid it and calling other names. Google search result will show how often it used.
'


in other words, nearly entirely up to subjectivity with regards to NK. I understand how google stats are a good indicator for SK usage but its obviously a flawed methodology for the other Korea in which native speakers do not use google much for some reason.

the 교도지도국 was often shortened to 교지국, but they didn't confuse it for "bureau of teaching". ditto with 대외무역성... this is often shortened a number of ways that can render it confusing to an uninformed reader, but it doesn't stop them. I will address jeongchaldae more clearly at the bottom.

This word can be confirmed by Journal of SK Ministry of Defense - Kookbangilbo, with some variation like '단도저격조', '단도화기 사격조', etc. if you think you are well-known about KPA even more than ROKA, I have no idea.


I worked alongside ROKA intelligence (777사령부) for 4 years and I have language+KPA analysis qualifications saved to folders if you really care to see them, so no patronization needed on that front. literally all I can find are blog links on top of the two journal links you provided, and nothing specifically indicating this is a NK term as opposed to an alternative SK name.

but thanks for confirming "로케트포" is a term straight out of a DPRK publication and it is a possible use for RPGs--I don't see how the link disproves that. 7호 발사관 is indeed a NK term for the RPG-7. and this is all ignoring that it was simpler to just go with calling it a 'fire support team'.

Then you have to suggest to add that 해상저격여단(해상저격대=Jeogockdae ingame) or 공군저격여단(공군저격대), not to make silly unit that can compare with like 'we already have Ranger, Delta Force, SEALs but add USSOCOM plz'
or, if you want to add TUGB Sniper brigades(경보교도지도국 저격여단 aka 교도저격대), don't MAKE name with your FLAVOR and don't abandon genuine name.


that's because USSOCOM doesn't function like 11th Corps/TUGB. USSOCOM doesn't have brigades directly assigned to it in the combat order of battle like TUGB does. USSOCOM is a staff element in that the various SOF components of the US military coordinate through it. your comparison would make more sense if I was saying "add a General Staff Department" unit. unlike SOCOM, TUGB has combat units that answer to TUGB headquarters alone, and like SOCOM, it has units that are administratively subordinate but delegated to the infantry units.

if you want to continue with the US SOF analogies, asking to break up TUGB discrete brigades into different units is like asking to break up SEALs into Seal Team 1 2 3 DEVGRU etc. or saying Soviet Spetsnaz should be further delineated into VDV Spetsnaz or what have you. the 10 discrete TUGB brigades have roughly the same mission despite being broken into three categories (strategic commando ops mostly via airborne insertion). thus, a unit can be given to NK authentically to represent the TUGB discrete brigades. tell me, is there such a unit to represent these 60k troops right now?

Jeogyokdae only represent the 해상저격대 as you mention. that's why I suggested adding Airborne tag so they can be represent both 해상 and 공군 저격여단, because they both represent a second front assault role with similar levels of training.

Gyongbobyong only represent the 군단속의 경보병, not the 교도지도국 경복병여단. the purpose of the infantry corps-subordinate light infantry battalions is vastly different from the brigades called "light infantry" at the TUGB level.

Jeongchaldae represent the 정찰국. however, as your own sources pointed out, there are also 장찰대대 that have nothing to do with REBU, subordinate to each infantry divison under the administrative control of TUGB. so we have two combat formations in NK that can be called 정찰대. how would you propose to resolve that, especially when NK can use its authentic 정찰대대들 as line/shock recon squads? that was my entire point with having to come up with some reasonable rename for the current Jeongchaldae. if there aren't Recon Bn troops added, then sure, Jeongchaldae should stay jeongchaldae.

Yuckjeondae presumably represent either the 공군 저격대 or the TUGB-level 항공륙전대/저격대/경보병 brigades (all 10 of which were airborne-qualified so it was a moot distinction for mostly administrative purposes. this is why as TUGB became the 11th Corps, the 10 brigades were given simply given Lightning/Thunder/etc names instead of Sniper/Airborne/Light). if its the former, its a bit redundant. if its the latter, that still leaves out the other 7 brigades of TUGB if we are going purely by name. this is why my scheme leaves out/renames Yuckjeondae for a unit that represents totality of TUGB's direct assets.

now do you see why I came up with the suggestions? under NK's current scheme, you have a couple dozen Reconnaissance Battalions and 7 brigades of SOF (9 if you want to count 공군 저격대) not specifically represented for in Wargame when NK can use all the authentic infantry help it can get. that's a huge mission/capability gap not covered in a nation that could use it for gameplay reasons and its not just "flavor" to try to reconcile it.

and good catch on the misspellings, lol

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