The many disadvantages of helicopters

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another505
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The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby another505 » Mon 7 Aug 2017 10:33

Helicopters in the game mechanic has way less blessings than ground vehicles or air which makes them a lot less interesting and useful unit.
I am NOT asking helos to be buffed in current game. But showing that helo mechanic is half baked like navy and if there is a new wargame, please consider making helicopter more INTERACTIVE ingame other than getting snipped by IR AA or helo rushing

1, Speed
All ground units have their max speed irl doubled ingame. From infantry running 30kmph, tanks going 80 offroad and 110 onroad. While helicopters have their around their irl max speed of 200-300kmph

2. Acceleration/deceleration
ground units speed to top speed or stop nearly instantly, even in reverse. while helicopters have slooow acceleration and deceleration. Makes them way less responsive, slower to attack, slower to escape and landing. Most importantly, to stop and fire its atgm accurately.

3. No defense
Planes have ecm, evacuation time that miraculously dodge everything, tanks have armor, infantry has cover
Helicopter has no ecm or evac. Making them more fragile

4. Barely any UI to allow micro
Tanks can be micro, an experience user can use tanks to out beat atgm infantry with cover. But an experience helo user cannot stop a 3325m AA or counter it.
Helicopters can't make use of cover to move or pop to attack like irl.

5. Its counter got hugely buff
Since AA has to shoot down planes with ecm and evac ability, they have great accuracy against helo that can't run away as fast or have any protection. The response time of AA got a huge buff to their irl counterpart.
Last edited by another505 on Mon 7 Aug 2017 14:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Erich Honecker
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby Erich Honecker » Mon 7 Aug 2017 10:56

You need to play Steel DIvision
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Razzmann
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby Razzmann » Mon 7 Aug 2017 10:59

>0s aim time on ATGMS
>0.2s aim time on rocket pods
>0.2s - 0.6s aim time on cannons
vs
>1s aim time on spaags and non radar SAMs


>helicopters having disadvantages

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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby Sleksa » Mon 7 Aug 2017 11:07

another505 wrote:1, Speed
All ground units have their max speed irl doubled ingame. From infantry running 30kmph, tanks going 80 offroad and 110 onroad. While helicopters have their around their irl max speed of 200-300kmph


Those ground speeds are a fallacy since they need to be fast moving on a road to get to that speed, while helicopters always retain their max speed (excluding acceleration) and use a direct a->b route in doing so, while vehicles add extra distance based on how well the road leads them into the destination.

another505 wrote:2. Acceleration/deceleration
ground units speed to top speed or stop nearly instantly, even in reverse. while helicopters have slooow acceleration and deceleration. Makes them way less responsive, slower to attack, slower to escape and landing. Most importantly, to stop and fire its atgm accurately.

Just as vehicles which are given a attack order use their base accuracy when spotting a enemy in range, helicopters also use the higher base accuracy.

another505 wrote:3. No defense
Planes have ecm, evacuation time that miraculously dodge everything, tanks have armor, infantry has cover
Helicopter has no ecm or evac. Making them more fragile

Evac doesn't make planes dodge anything, and size does the same thing as ecm. very small targets are much harder to hit than medium or big ones.

another505 wrote:4. Barely any UI to allow micro
Tanks can be micro, an experience user can use tanks to out beat atgm infantry with cover. But an experience helo user cannot stop a 3325m AA or counter it.


In a world that only contains helis and aa pieces, sure. In game you have mortars and other tools to make the aa go away.

another505 wrote:Helicopters can't make use of cover to move or pop to attack like irl.


Yes

another505 wrote:5. Its counter got hugely buff
Since AA has to shoot down planes with ecm and evac ability, they have great accuracy against helo that can't run away as fast or have any protection. The response time of AA got a huge buff to their irl counterpart.


In ancient history there was a time when you could buy quad hellfire helis for 80 pts that could fire all of their shots in 1-2 seconds, most gun based aa was at 1925-2275 range, and there was a single (1) viable 3325 ranged aa piece with slow speed. Needless to say this has something to do with the current aa/helo situation.
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby another505 » Mon 7 Aug 2017 11:29

Razzmann wrote:>0s aim time on ATGMS
>0.2s aim time on rocket pods
>0.2s - 0.6s aim time on cannons
vs
>1s aim time on spaags and non radar SAMs


>helicopters having disadvantages

except atgm travels much slower than SPAAG rounds or SAM . And most helo are outranged by SAM or even SPAAGS
and yes, irl most saclos atgm don't have aim time, you fire then aim is a viable method with kokon. meanwhile IR AA does need a lockon that could take up to take 10 second.


Sleksa wrote:
another505 wrote:1, Speed
All ground units have their max speed irl doubled ingame. From infantry running 30kmph, tanks going 80 offroad and 110 onroad. While helicopters have their around their irl max speed of 200-300kmph


Those ground speeds are a fallacy since they need to be fast moving on a road to get to that speed, while helicopters always retain their max speed (excluding acceleration) and use a direct a->b route in doing so, while vehicles add extra distance based on how well the road leads them into the destination.

another505 wrote:2. Acceleration/deceleration
ground units speed to top speed or stop nearly instantly, even in reverse. while helicopters have slooow acceleration and deceleration. Makes them way less responsive, slower to attack, slower to escape and landing. Most importantly, to stop and fire its atgm accurately.

Just as vehicles which are given a attack order use their base accuracy when spotting a enemy in range, helicopters also use the higher base accuracy.

another505 wrote:3. No defense
Planes have ecm, evacuation time that miraculously dodge everything, tanks have armor, infantry has cover
Helicopter has no ecm or evac. Making them more fragile

Evac doesn't make planes dodge anything, and size does the same thing as ecm. very small targets are much harder to hit than medium or big ones.

another505 wrote:4. Barely any UI to allow micro
Tanks can be micro, an experience user can use tanks to out beat atgm infantry with cover. But an experience helo user cannot stop a 3325m AA or counter it.


In a world that only contains helis and aa pieces, sure. In game you have mortars and other tools to make the aa go away.

another505 wrote:Helicopters can't make use of cover to move or pop to attack like irl.


Yes

another505 wrote:5. Its counter got hugely buff
Since AA has to shoot down planes with ecm and evac ability, they have great accuracy against helo that can't run away as fast or have any protection. The response time of AA got a huge buff to their irl counterpart.


In ancient history there was a time when you could buy quad hellfire helis for 80 pts that could fire all of their shots in 1-2 seconds, most gun based aa was at 1925-2275 range, and there was a single (1) viable 3325 ranged aa piece with slow speed. Needless to say this has something to do with the current aa/helo situation.



1. Even offroad speed of vehicle is way faster than their irl.
2 Except vehicles basically instantly stop for max accuracy. Helos do not, and have to stop, aim fire their rockets and gun. ATGM with stab could fire on the move, but atgm always have the slow speed disadvantage
3. Its not easy to use artillery to remove AA against a decent player that just moves it a bit. Not to mention, most of the time, the AA fire beyond your LOS, and they can easily move it before you artillery fire. The avail. of AA is also sufficient unless you are losing a lot of them without care. And if the world has only AA vs Helo? There is a lot of soft counters against helo. Arguably the most ingame.


And yes, evac basically dodges everything as long as you get out. An ASF on your tail? as long as you get out of there, the ASF can't shoot it down. A missile that got off a bit late, you can dodge it.
Size is limited to what , max -10% accuracy, ecm goes up to 60 percent. So that is a difference. Besides, it doesnt take account of helo's defensive suite other than just its size is a bad representation.
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 7 Aug 2017 11:30

I too enjoy getting helorushed and rocketpodded into oblivion.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby chykka » Mon 7 Aug 2017 11:33

Yeah most AA will out range, but they are most Cost efficent on defense usually than say a plane that can't stick around as long. They can take cover, sort of and used to get concealment in some types of terrain. So with su25T get get lots of missiles, but to fire them off a kamov will use it atgm before a plane will be able to fire off as many as it has to take multiple runs while helicopter can lower altitude and sick around.

If Altitude change happened faster they may be more useful in game. Even to the points of dodging missiles more constantly if they have cover to hide behind. If it's got normal stealth for a helicopter it's pretty likely it will get spotted.

I know in DCS Black shark you can target side armour bit easier even if tanks are almost facing you. As you have more time to adjust the targeting. However that's not something that can be modeled. I find it's more likely a plane gets a side shot in Wargame, unless it's distracted and facjng something else.

Missiles usually out range Helo, but Spaag now is firing at Atgm range which kind of makes helicopters a nightmare to use on the offensive in a subtle way. Poking with helicopter maybe used to be a thing, but missiles concealed would always take them out faster or at least force a retreat if at max range, especially if they land the first shot if they happen to be well within range they will have little to no way to escape even if you lower behind cover it's essentially pinned.

You can't fly low altitude a as soon as you move it flys upwards. Countermeasures would be cool, but not if it works like Ecm. Except one thing new in RD is atgm accuracy on the move. So you can sometimes rush in even with older Atgm and still get hits.

However also there is a lot more fast AA that also Outranges atgm . Marder Roland 2 is like 70 km/h so, helos are pretty much hard countered but so are tanks by Atgm right?
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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby Razzmann » Mon 7 Aug 2017 11:54

another505 wrote:
Razzmann wrote:>0s aim time on ATGMS
>0.2s aim time on rocket pods
>0.2s - 0.6s aim time on cannons
vs
>1s aim time on spaags and non radar SAMs


>helicopters having disadvantages

except atgm travels much slower than SPAAG rounds or SAM . And most helo are outranged by SAM or even SPAAGS
and yes, irl most saclos atgm don't have aim time, you fire then aim is a viable method with kokon. meanwhile IR AA does need a lockon that could take up to take 10 second.

I don't really care much about RL arguments tbh.

Does not matter how fast a SAM flies if it is dead before it can get the 2nd shot out, or hit with the first one.
Here are some examples:
https://my.mixtape.moe/mraaaz.mp4
https://youtu.be/ABcKeLB7WC8?t=37

Since radar aa is rarely used as your main aa vs helos, one can assume that nearly always the aim time is 1s.
The ATGM speed disadvantage is more than made up with the fact that you have a one second advantage until the aa unit starts firing.

This is problematic in many ways:
  • If your helo can tank more than one missile and has a semi decent ATGM, you're gona win vs SAM systems, unless you are outnumbered 2 to 1 - how good of a counter is a unit if you need to spend more units and points to counter the unit you are supposed to be the hardcounter to?
  • Rocket pod helo (Mi-17 is a prime example) is hovering in front of a forest, suddenly an aa unit drives at the edge to kill it. now there are two scenarios:
    • it is a guided system which will most likely result in the unit dying before it can damage the helo -> 0.2s aim time and no guided vs 1s aim time + guided
    • the unit if F&F and will get one missile off before it does to the rocked pods

Helicopters are straight up broken.

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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby Razzmann » Mon 7 Aug 2017 12:12

And let's not forget about this interaction: https://gfycat.com/WiltedEnchantedIndigowingedparrot

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Re: The many disadvantages of helicopters

Postby chykka » Mon 7 Aug 2017 12:49

The optics on helos maybe. Firing atgm on the move maybe just as much, but tbh if a helo gets hit even if it has the strength and armour value to tank a missile if it's still calm than there is something bunk with the moral. It makes sense in open and with two guys the Atgm on the move makes sense. At least in forest with optics. I can't really see how the tung is going to do much burried in the trees . You can probably hear it though, unlike a tung sitting in the trees. Is more likely the tung would be aware of the helicopter but not have Los to actually fire at it.
Last edited by chykka on Mon 7 Aug 2017 13:19, edited 1 time in total.
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