Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

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Coal143
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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Coal143 » Sat 9 Sep 2017 16:29

thelizardofdoom wrote:This thread has been fucking hilarious. People accusing a top player of being shit.

I really wish people would quit bashing the faustman mod. People invest their time and energy, without pay, to contribute to the game and you talk shitty about them for it? Disgraceful.


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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Oktoberfest » Sun 10 Sep 2017 20:14

Wait what ? A 1969 BMP-1 with 73mm main gun has more HEAT power than an AMX-30 with a 105mm Obus G in game ???? What the FUCK???

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Sleksa » Sun 10 Sep 2017 20:47

Oktoberfest wrote:Wait what ? A 1969 BMP-1 with 73mm main gun has more HEAT power than an AMX-30 with a 105mm Obus G in game ???? What the FUCK???


v0v

HEAT warheads suffer when spin stabilized, a product of rifled barrels,[44] causing the French to develop the Obus G,[34] (Gresse).[15] This projectile was composed of two major parts, including the outer shell and a suspended inner shell, divided by ball bearings. This allowed the projectile to be spin-stabilized, and therefore more accurate than a normal fin-stabilized HEAT-round, while the inner shell did not move, allowing the warhead to work at maximum efficiency. The warhead, containing 780 gram hexolite,[45] could penetrate up to 400 millimeters (16 in) of steel armour


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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Oktoberfest » Sun 10 Sep 2017 22:04

Sleksa wrote:
Oktoberfest wrote:Wait what ? A 1969 BMP-1 with 73mm main gun has more HEAT power than an AMX-30 with a 105mm Obus G in game ???? What the FUCK???


v0v

HEAT warheads suffer when spin stabilized, a product of rifled barrels,[44] causing the French to develop the Obus G,[34] (Gresse).[15] This projectile was composed of two major parts, including the outer shell and a suspended inner shell, divided by ball bearings. This allowed the projectile to be spin-stabilized, and therefore more accurate than a normal fin-stabilized HEAT-round, while the inner shell did not move, allowing the warhead to work at maximum efficiency. The warhead, containing 780 gram hexolite,[45] could penetrate up to 400 millimeters (16 in) of steel armour


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These are the rounds for the BMP-1, OK, but from 1969 ? They made 73mm rounds so efficient in 1969 ?

God DAMN !

Wait : Performance
"The HEAT warhead can penetrate 280–350 millimetres (11–14 in) of steel armor—more than enough to penetrate the frontal armor of NATO main battle tanks (MBT)s of the 1970s, such as the US M60A1, the British Chieftain or the German Leopard 1.[6] The modernised PG-9 shell is able to penetrate up to 400 millimetres (16 in) of steel armor. At closer ranges, BMPs were potentially a serious threat to NATO armor."

So, actually, the 1969 round should penetrate 280/350 mm of steel, that's 9 to 12 AP HEAT, ok. And precision is limited to close range, the BMP-1 having an effective engagement range of 800m. Why does the fucking Obus G with 2000m engagement range and 400mm HEAT penetration have only 9 AP HEAT ????? EUGEN GET A FUCKING GRIP !

No criticizing the 1981 BMP-1 though, it's totally fair that it fires improved HEAT rounds with 450 mm like the PG9N or PG9VS, even though I don't know at what date these were introduced.
But a BMP-1 from 1969 having 3AP superior to a 105mm gun and offering basically 120mm penetration + at greater range... That's ridiculous.

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Sleksa » Sun 10 Sep 2017 22:35

Oktoberfest wrote:
Sleksa wrote:v0v

God DAMN !

Wait : Performance
"The HEAT warhead can penetrate 280–350 millimetres (11–14 in) of steel armor—more than enough to penetrate the frontal armor of NATO main battle tanks (MBT)s of the 1970s, such as the US M60A1, the British Chieftain or the German Leopard 1.[6] The modernised PG-9 shell is able to penetrate up to 400 millimetres (16 in) of steel armor. At closer ranges, BMPs were potentially a serious threat to NATO armor."

So, actually, the 1969 round should penetrate 280/350 mm of steel, that's 9 to 12 AP HEAT, ok. And precision is limited to close range, the BMP-1 having an effective engagement range of 800m. Why does the fucking Obus G with 2000m engagement range and 400mm HEAT penetration have only 9 AP HEAT ????? EUGEN GET A FUCKING GRIP !

No criticizing the 1981 BMP-1 though, it's totally fair that it fires improved HEAT rounds with 450 mm like the PG9N or PG9VS, even though I don't know at what date these were introduced.
But a BMP-1 from 1969 having 3AP superior to a 105mm gun and offering basically 120mm penetration + at greater range... That's ridiculous.


amx is a more or less completely forgotten legacy unit from ee that has had very little changes to it throughout the series.

With that in mind:

1) is the obi g made at around the same date as the amx-30
2) would giving it a higher ap and a higher pricetag make it better at it's job
3) is this one of the bigger concerns to the state of balance/gameplay of red dragon

Spoiler : :
Also, nearly all bmp-1's all over the world stopped using the autoloader fairly quickly after bmp-1's introduction since ussr made a vastly better heat and he round for the spg9, which also fit on the bmp's cannon but not on it's autoloader, eg more or less all bmp-1's for every nation are eligible for the finnish bmp1 treatment and spg9's stats
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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby HrcAk47 » Sun 10 Sep 2017 22:36

Obus G was great... in 60s and early 70s. After that, not so much.

Who the hell uses the 1969 BMP?
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

SMB Yugoslavia Retexture Mod, now released, v.1.0

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Mike » Sun 10 Sep 2017 22:38

Oktoberfest wrote:Wait what ? A 1969 BMP-1 with 73mm main gun has more HEAT power than an AMX-30 with a 105mm Obus G in game ???? What the FUCK???


Always with the French stuff from you!
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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Markenzwieback » Sun 10 Sep 2017 22:41

HrcAk47 wrote:Who the hell uses the 1969 BMP?

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Oktoberfest » Mon 11 Sep 2017 14:31

NA
Last edited by Oktoberfest on Mon 11 Sep 2017 14:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Broken Stuff that Needs Fixing ASAP

Postby Oktoberfest » Mon 11 Sep 2017 14:42

Mike wrote:
Oktoberfest wrote:Wait what ? A 1969 BMP-1 with 73mm main gun has more HEAT power than an AMX-30 with a 105mm Obus G in game ???? What the FUCK???


Always with the French stuff from you!


It's my favorite Nation, I've never made a secret about it. Of course, I compare said nation to the treatment received by other Nations. Here I see a1969 73mm HEAT round with 280-350 mm penetration at 700 m (okay distance doesn't play a role with HEAT) outmatch the 400 mm penetration of the OCC 105 F1 from the french tank by 35% in the game ! I mean, it has 12 AP which in game is 360 mm penetration (1 AP / 30mm penetration). So that's very accurate. But in this case, the Obus G should have 400/30 = AP13. Which means slightly better performance, as intended, but at a longer distance. Which seems logical for the F1 main gun of the AMX-30.

And HrcAk47,

Obus G was great... in 60s and early 70s. After that, not so much.

Who the hell uses the 1969 BMP?


The BMP-1 is the workhorse of many Redfor Nations and the stats are shared between nearly all of them (all have AP12 HEAT, IIRC). The Obus G does not get weaker with its penetration as the times passes, and given the fact that the AMX-30B should mainly face T-55/T-62 and early T-72 in game, I tell you that it matters a friggin lot to a french deck player like me!

13AP allows it to deal much more efficiently vs all kind of hard targets, and it would bring it to a better level for the "glass canon doctrine" so loved by the french cavalry.

amx is a more or less completely forgotten legacy unit from ee that has had very little changes to it throughout the series.

With that in mind:

1) is the obi g made at around the same date as the amx-30
2) would giving it a higher ap and a higher pricetag make it better at it's job
3) is this one of the bigger concerns to the state of balance/gameplay of red dragon


The Obus G, IIRC, was introduced with the AMX-30, as the round was specifically designed for the gun. It was the best HEAT round for a 105mm gun at the time, having an excellent penetration and an excellent precision for a HEAT round at 2000m at the time.
I know it's a relic from EE and god, I'd like to have the french tanks reworked to their real stats instead of having to rely on the unicorns that are the AMX-32 and AMX-40. I've written extensively about french ammunitions in the past, and of course, having the tanks with following APs (all of them justified) would be heaven in the game. This statement does not mean other nations don't need the exact same treatment, though!!!

AMX13/75 - 7 AP KE - PCOT-51P APCBC-T
AMX13/90: 10 AP HEAT - OCC90mmEMP Mle62
AMX-30/30B - 13 AP HEAT - Obus G
AMX-30B2 - 15 AP KE - OFL105G2
AMX-30B2 Brennus - 18AP KE - OFL105F2
Leclerc - 20AP KE - OFL120F1

You'll get a streamlined french tank line, prototypes are part of the deck with the Brennus, but not abused like with the AMX-32 and AMX-40, and the Leclerc does not brake the game by using the OFL120F2.

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