BLUFOR TOW Infantry

User avatar
cramble
Master Sergeant
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue 24 Jul 2012 19:27
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby cramble » Wed 15 Oct 2014 15:18

Why is everybody going away from the subject ?
If it was up to me i would choose Tow infantry above the Patriot. (not going to discus the patriot here.)
But lets be fair this has bin discussed so many times before and i didn't find a real reason why this isn't in game, okay its heavy but lets face it most ATGMs are they mostly are moved by vehicle to the front lines then moved up closer and not really used as a offensive weapon, more as a defensive weapon.
Most TOW armed vehicles have bipod with them for them to mount it off and place it concealed for defensive times. Wen in offence they are mostly mounted on the vehicles designed for this weapon system.

But lets look at the game stats and compare and then finish with a real life picture:
Spoiler : :
NATO
Milan F1 - 2450M - 35% ACC - 17AP - x6 AMMO
Milan F2 - 2450M - 40% ACC - 24AP - x6 AMMO
Milan F3 - 2450M - 50% ACC - 26AP - x6 AMMO
CHUMAT - 2450M - 60%ACC - 21AP - x6 AMMO
RBS 56 - 2275M - 50% ACC - 26AP - x8 AMMO - 5 Men squad

PACT
Fagot - 2450M - 40% ACC - 13AP - x6 AMMO
Faktoriya -2450M - 45% ACC - 16AP - x6 AMMO
Konkurs -2625M - 45% ACC - 20AP - x6 AMMO
KonkursM-2625M - 50%ACC - 23AP - x6 AMMO

TOW Anti Tank
Tow - 2625M - 50% ACC - 15AP
I-Tow -2625M - 60% ACC - 20AP
Tow 2 -2625M - 70% ACC - 25AP (This one is just to compare i don't think this would be fair to have as a infantry launched weapon.)

And then there is the Dragon anti tank, i don't really see them as ATGMs neither dos the game but still to compare.
M47 Dragon
M47 Dragon - 1575M - 35% ACC - 10AP
M47 Dragon II - 1575M - 50% ACC - 13AP
M47 Super Dragon -1925M - 50% ACC - 15AP

If you look at the stats the TOW and the I-Tow are very close and to up to the same level as the other infantry launched anti tank weapons.
And the tow can be used by allot of nations that don't use the Milan or other weapons like that.
Or do i get the same old answer that the game is based on coalition decks rather then national decks with i prefer.

So for me why not i would love Tow infantry just as much as HJ-8 infantry.

Here is a picture of infantry running with a tow launcher and ammo in a operation training for the Allied Command Europe Mobile Force operation called Avenue Express in 1989.
This picture shows the Dutch Marines Whiskey Infanterie Compagnie (WINFCIE) and the Tweede Amfibische Gevechtsgroep (2-AGGP).
Image

I just found this other picture with the same guys but the standing hold with the Tow weapon in there hands.
Image

More pictures about this operation you can find on this site:
http://www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/index.cfm?event=search.getsimplesearch&database=ChoiceMardig&needimages=true&searchterm=Avenue%20Express&allfields=&title=&keyword=&creator=&collection=&shipname=&invno=&museum=&startrow=1
Last edited by cramble on Wed 15 Oct 2014 16:25, edited 1 time in total.
''Our scars have the power to remind us that the past was real. We live in a primitive time, don't we? Neither savage nor wise. Half measures are the curse of it.''

Znail
Lieutenant
Posts: 1256
Joined: Wed 18 Jun 2014 01:54
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby Znail » Wed 15 Oct 2014 15:40

cramble wrote:Why is everybody going away from the subject ?
If it was up to me i would choose Tow infantry above the Patriot. (not going to discus the patriot here.)
But lets be fair this has bin discussed so many times before and i didn't find a real reason why this isn't in game, okay its heavy but lets face it most ATGMs are they mostly are moved by vehicle to the front lines then moved up closer and not really used as a offensive weapon, more as a defensive weapon.
Most TOW armed vehicles have bipod with them for them to mount it off and place it concealed for defensive times. Wen in offence they are mostly mounted on the vehicles designed for this weapon system.

You are right about how the TOW is usually used, but you are wrong in your assumption that other ATGM are used the same way. For instance, RBS 56 are even used by Paratroopers and that is about as offensive you get with infantry and obviously having to move it around by themselves after landing.

Too bad the dutch is not in the game, else they could perhaps get TOW armed infantry.

pdanders
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 603
Joined: Wed 31 Jul 2013 20:48
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby pdanders » Wed 15 Oct 2014 16:23

I'd much rather than the horribad accuracy of many ATGMs be fixed... in fact the whole "hit roll" mechanic probably needs to be looked at.

There is no justification for the TOW being so much more accurate than other systems

pdanders
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 603
Joined: Wed 31 Jul 2013 20:48
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby pdanders » Wed 15 Oct 2014 16:30

Sharkey Ward wrote:


And here is a video of a small squad carrying a TOW launcher. Both require setting up before firing, there is literally no reason why TOW infantry squads aren't a thing in Wargame.


The lack of a setup time is actually one problem with Wargame... should apply to SAMs, some Arty, etc.

The older (but great for it's time) WW2 RTS Blitzkrieg (which actually is similar to Wargame in many ways... although it was more realistic in some ways in that penetration was actually modeled... ranges were much less realistic though) had this and it worked well

pdanders
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 603
Joined: Wed 31 Jul 2013 20:48
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby pdanders » Wed 15 Oct 2014 16:33

I wish Eugen would stop trying to justify including or not including things other than to just say "we don't think it would work/fit well in game"

They've broken their own rules and reasoning so many times that they'd be better off not publicizing it

User avatar
cramble
Master Sergeant
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue 24 Jul 2012 19:27
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby cramble » Wed 15 Oct 2014 20:32

Znail wrote:
cramble wrote:Why is everybody going away from the subject ?
If it was up to me i would choose Tow infantry above the Patriot. (not going to discus the patriot here.)
But lets be fair this has bin discussed so many times before and i didn't find a real reason why this isn't in game, okay its heavy but lets face it most ATGMs are they mostly are moved by vehicle to the front lines then moved up closer and not really used as a offensive weapon, more as a defensive weapon.
Most TOW armed vehicles have bipod with them for them to mount it off and place it concealed for defensive times. Wen in offence they are mostly mounted on the vehicles designed for this weapon system.

You are right about how the TOW is usually used, but you are wrong in your assumption that other ATGM are used the same way. For instance, RBS 56 are even used by Paratroopers and that is about as offensive you get with infantry and obviously having to move it around by themselves after landing.

Too bad the dutch is not in the game, else they could perhaps get TOW armed infantry.


Yes it dosnt count for all atgms but i just wanted to point out even if its very heavy it is mostly transported and then the infantry carries it to the frontline by foot.
What for paratroopers well your right about that but they have other anti tank weapons for faster attacks then to set up a atgm device and then use it.
As soon as they capture a point and need to hold it a atgm can become very effective.
''Our scars have the power to remind us that the past was real. We live in a primitive time, don't we? Neither savage nor wise. Half measures are the curse of it.''

User avatar
I WUB PUGS
Lieutenant
Posts: 1225
Joined: Tue 30 Apr 2013 18:40
Location: Monterey California
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby I WUB PUGS » Wed 15 Oct 2014 20:42

pdanders wrote:I wish Eugen would stop trying to justify including or not including things other than to just say "we don't think it would work/fit well in game"

They've broken their own rules and reasoning so many times that they'd be better off not publicizing it


Basically this.

Just have MadMat say, "no, now shutup".
Image

Iris
Brigadier
Posts: 3422
Joined: Tue 14 May 2013 00:41

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby Iris » Wed 15 Oct 2014 20:46

This is the crux. Doctrine matters as if US army doesn't consider the TOW man portable, then it doesn't make sense to have US soldiers carrying it around in the game. The actual mass matters less then if there are trained TOW teams carrying around the TOWs during manuvers.


It's technically considered manportable in the US Army, but it was definitely more vehicle-centric than Milans or Konkurs.
Last edited by Iris on Wed 15 Oct 2014 22:18, edited 1 time in total.

Delta Actual
Corporal
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue 7 May 2013 21:02
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby Delta Actual » Wed 15 Oct 2014 21:55

I'm just adding this in not as a response to anyone but I've talked to a paratrooper from the 82nd and he was a TOW gunner that's why I made this post because I think the US could use this very much just as much as any other country in blufor nation like japan and south Korea that use a lot of US equipment practices I don't know about any European countries but I think a few might have used the TOW in an infantry format

User avatar
FoxZz
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu 27 Mar 2014 19:16
Contact:

Re: US TOW Infantry

Postby FoxZz » Thu 16 Oct 2014 04:33

cramble wrote:Why is everybody going away from the subject ?
If it was up to me i would choose Tow infantry above the Patriot. (not going to discus the patriot here.)
But lets be fair this has bin discussed so many times before and i didn't find a real reason why this isn't in game, okay its heavy but lets face it most ATGMs are they mostly are moved by vehicle to the front lines then moved up closer and not really used as a offensive weapon, more as a defensive weapon.
Most TOW armed vehicles have bipod with them for them to mount it off and place it concealed for defensive times. Wen in offence they are mostly mounted on the vehicles designed for this weapon system.

Here is a picture of infantry running with a tow launcher and ammo in a operation training for the Allied Command Europe Mobile Force operation called Avenue Express in 1989.
This picture shows the Dutch Marines Whiskey Infanterie Compagnie (WINFCIE) and the Tweede Amfibische Gevechtsgroep (2-AGGP).
Image

I just found this other picture with the same guys but the standing hold with the Tow weapon in there hands.
Image

More pictures about this operation you can find on this site:
http://www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/index.cfm?event=search.getsimplesearch&database=ChoiceMardig&needimages=true&searchterm=Avenue%20Express&allfields=&title=&keyword=&creator=&collection=&shipname=&invno=&museum=&startrow=1



ATGMS carried by footmobiles are used very often in an offensive role when the terrain doesn't allow the use of vehicles. If the system needs a vehicle to be moved, than it doesn't belong to the infantry section.
For instance, in Afghanistan Milan teams had to climb the moutain by foot to set up a fire position on the ridge and cover the valley, then, they had to follow the advance of troops. Milan systems were also droped with airborne troops in Mali.

Image
A Milan team climbing the moutain.

Image
A Milan team changing position.

As you can see, Tow and Milan missiles are not equal when it comes to moving with your foots.

You can't climb a moutain or march during several days with a Tow system, it's way to heavy.
Tow missiles are the equivalent of HOT missiles, they are are carried by vehicles and choppers and that's it.

And about the Mistral teams, Mistral are man portable, one guy carries the tripod, the other the missile.

Return to “Wargame : Red Dragon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 98 guests