To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Charbel
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To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Postby Charbel » Wed 4 Nov 2015 22:10

HI, This is not a buff-this, nerf-that Thread. Just a simple suggestion.

For every balance decision Eugen patches in wargame games there is much debate on it being right, undue or excessive. We can read hundreds of pages on cluster rockets, atgm balance, MG balance, OP units, etc and all of them, at some point, pushes for the differences to be set in requisitions points in the game, a.k.a PRICE of the unit.

The problem clear to me, is that there is very little flexibility on balancing the game and any small changes could rebalance the entire system. There is very few options that became worse on Red Dragon game, where the entire range is scaled in 5 Points increases/decreases.

The problem is that low end units are priced so low, like the 10 pts infantry in a 5 pts truck/APC. This is the same problem the 1 pts truck in ALB were so atractive to suicide missions.

The suggestion, scale the points and prices UP, to make that 5 points increase/decrease more usefull.

For exemple:

Today: the usual 1000pts/player game, 10 pts infantry, 5 pts transport, 80 pts tank
Suggested: the usual 2000pts/player game, 20 pts infantry, 10 pts transport, 160 pts tank

This example does not change the game balance, and provides more efficient balance changes.
Of course more experienced people could provide better examples and suggestion, please share .

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integ3r
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Re: To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Postby integ3r » Wed 4 Nov 2015 22:16

People have been asking for the economy and prices to be multiplied x10 or x100 since ALB to keep 5 point increments but allow better fine-tuning. But it wasn't done for RD. So it would have to be for the next wargame.
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Re: To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Postby jacobrosoto » Wed 4 Nov 2015 23:50

What could we expect in the next wargames if there is no possible balance ahead of time? What would be the effect to every player?

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triumph
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Re: To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Postby triumph » Thu 5 Nov 2015 00:50

Not happening.
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JBravo
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Re: To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Postby JBravo » Thu 5 Nov 2015 02:34

I've never seen a reason on why the 5 point system is so amazing that they have to stick with it. It seems like another one of those weird Eugen things that nobody can explain.
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Re: To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Postby Mike » Thu 5 Nov 2015 03:07

#JustEugenThings
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Re: To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Thu 5 Nov 2015 10:42

jacobrosoto wrote:What could we expect in the next wargames if there is no possible balance ahead of time? What would be the effect to every player?

Rant threads, flame wars a doom prophecies starting earlier ...
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Re: To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Postby Darkmil » Thu 5 Nov 2015 11:27

JBravo wrote:I've never seen a reason on why the 5 point system is so amazing that they have to stick with it. It seems like another one of those weird Eugen things that nobody can explain.

There is a very good reaon.
We've seen argument on how a 5 point increase on a Super-Heavy price (The Leclerc for instance) would balance it. 5 points represent a small fraction of its price, truly negligible if you think about it. Now imagine people arguing for a 1, 2, 3, 4 point change (which with high-end units would make no change, just try to imagine a debate on whether the Su-27PU should be 198 points or 201 points, with someone coming and saying 199 points would be better), the debate would go nowhere and be endless. Balancing units by adding/removing 1/30 or 1/20 of its price is not a thing, this is not significant enough.
Though I must admit if we could do as the OP say for a better tuning of low-end/cheap units it could be good. That or using a 3 // 5 // 8 // 10 // 12 // 15 // 18 // 20 // 22 // 25 // 28 // 30 scale for cheap units.

But it won't happen...
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Re: To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Postby integ3r » Thu 5 Nov 2015 15:43

Darkmil wrote:
JBravo wrote:I've never seen a reason on why the 5 point system is so amazing that they have to stick with it. It seems like another one of those weird Eugen things that nobody can explain.

There is a very good reaon.
We've seen argument on how a 5 point increase on a Super-Heavy price (The Leclerc for instance) would balance it. 5 points represent a small fraction of its price, truly negligible if you think about it. Now imagine people arguing for a 1, 2, 3, 4 point change (which with high-end units would make no change, just try to imagine a debate on whether the Su-27PU should be 198 points or 201 points, with someone coming and saying 199 points would be better), the debate would go nowhere and be endless. Balancing units by adding/removing 1/30 or 1/20 of its price is not a thing, this is not significant enough.
Though I must admit if we could do as the OP say for a better tuning of low-end/cheap units it could be good. That or using a 3 // 5 // 8 // 10 // 12 // 15 // 18 // 20 // 22 // 25 // 28 // 30 scale for cheap units.

But it won't happen...

I can't tell if you're joking but the reason 5 point increments mess up things is because at the lower end of things it matters more.

A transport costs 5 points. But oh no it's too strong. Make it cost 10. But it's not THAT strong and 10 is TWICE the cost of 5 which means you can only get half as many and gimps your ability to get infantry and maybe they were only good because you could get many in the first place.

It matters more when it represents 25% to 100% of a units cost and the impact grows when you're getting more of said unit. Sure balancing on the top end works out, but that's not why anyone is mad.

Now suppose we multiply everything by 10 and our OP transport cost 50 instead of 5. Now we can tweak a lot more by making it 70 instead 7. 70 looks cleaner than 7 and we've now fixed the problem of doubling the cost of the unit. From 50 to 100 which is what we effectively had before.
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Re: To: wargamers and marshals. Red Dragon Balance.

Postby Yakhont » Thu 5 Nov 2015 15:47

The 5 point increments need to go so badly they worked fine in RUSE but not for the level of nuance the devs have worked into Wargame
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