Fine-tuning NK/China

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Wed 18 May 2016 19:41

frostypooky wrote:eh, i still hold out hope for a free 5-6 RD unit pack if the paid Nation Packs are successful enough. DLC 2 came out of nowhere also when we only knew Eugen had intentions to buff NSWP/Scandi.


Yeah, the idea is to limit the need for new units as small as possible. But first we need to know what has been done about the balance patch. Then maybe with some rerolls/new loadouts and few new units to make RD competitive.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby youzhe » Thu 19 May 2016 07:35

This is my design(Include new units).Maybe a lot of ideas a little crazy.
INF
Zhanshi /Zhanshi 85 now use type56(RPD)/type81 machine gun.
Zhanshi 85's 69-1rpg ACC buff to 50%,but AP down to 19.
(NK)GONGBOBYONG now use SPG-9D

TAN
(CH)ZTZ-59-II's main gun named ZPT-79(ZPT,armor-gun-tank),105mm/L51
ZTZ-59-IIA's main gun named ZPT-81,105mm/L51
ZTZ-88's main gun named ZPT-83,105mm/L51
ZTZ-85-II's main gun named ZPT-83A,105mm/58,also be used in ZTZ-88A
ZTZ-85-IIA/85III maybe use 2A46
If possible,85-III can rename 88C
ZTZ-59-1's AP buff to 11

VEC
PTZ-59 rename BW120K.

PLA
J-7IIM now use PL-7*2,rotating radius down to 400-450,
J-8B now can use new weapom:PL-4/10(AIM-7D).have 35% ACC.

NAVY
Shantou add one 82mm mortar.

New units(if possible)
LOG
(CH)New supply unit:SA-321Ja
(NK)New supply unit:Mi-26

INF
(NK)Bochongsu90,use RPG-7VR,15-20pts.
(NK)Konkurs ATGM
(CH)Kongjiangbing/Kongjiangbing90(空降兵,Airborne),light infantry,likes Gurkha.Main weapon:QBZ-56-1/70-1/type56(RPD) QBZ-87A/PF-89/type81

SUP
(CH)SF-1/SA-6,1975,sup deck(imported from the Soviet Union in1975,only have one battalion)
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(CH)HN-5C,appeared in BETA
(CH)HQ-64
(CH)PLZ-83-130,sup deck,early 1990s,use 130mm M46/59-1.
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(CH)PLZ-89 and PHZ-89
(NK)240mm MLRS "Taedong River"
(CH)EQ-240 ZU-23 and ZSD-63 AA
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TAN
(NK)use T-72S or CHONMAHO-V replace T-90S
(CH)ZTZ-90II or WZ123(early project)

HEL
(CH)Mi-17,1991

REC
(CH)LYT-2021,1995(appeared in BF2/4)
(CH)Alouette III,1960s,replace Mi-1
(CH)ZZC-93
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(NK)Scout infantry,15-20pts
(CH)Waren(蛙人,frogman),35-40pts,use QBZ-56C/QLZ-87/QBU85(svd)
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VEC
(CH)WZ523/M1984,10pts,1983
(CH)NVH-1,1986,use 30mm L21A1 RARDEN
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PLA
(CH)Q-5II,can use 250kg bomb*6 and PL-5*2
(CH)J-8IA,1979,use PL-5*4

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby remilia019 » Mon 23 May 2016 01:10

If they remove T-90S, then put Chonmaho V and ZTZ-96, I would be so happy, even if they make ZTZ-96 a bit inferior to T-90S (though please get 21 armor so it can tank stuff)
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby remilia019 » Mon 23 May 2016 01:13

youzhe wrote:-snip-

Add Tor in Sup for China since they got it, also serve as a SAM for Red Dragon Mechanized
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Wed 25 May 2016 15:45

Here comes the third round of balance suggestions for RD coalition.

I do hope the support for the game will pick up pace again, now that eugen is releasing paid content. We still don't know if they will add any new units for the old nations, so far all we have is "wait and see". But regardless i will add parts about re-rolls and possible new units.

Right now the RD coalition is in best case just mediocre and imo is dead last in competitiveness. One of the big problems is how both nations don't complement each other well, most of the time China can substitute a lot of NK kits to various degrees.

The suggestions will be divided in 3 parts

1: to increase the competitiveness of RD decks
2: to reduce redundancies thus increase the synergy/alternatives of the coalition
3: to distinguish them further from other coalitions

Foremost both nations should have very good selection in infantry, since there is a strong emphasis on ground forces and especially infantry IRL. Accompany them is a tank force that mostly should be thinly armored but have very good firepower. The lack of high end ASF in the air force is understandable and historic, but at least some solid options in BVR engagements should available. I believe with these focus we can create a more viable and historic RD.

Disclaimer: Every PLA watcher worth their salt should know that information about the military is jealously guarded, all things we read openly in the web are just guesses. Some are more logical and well reasoned and some are just daydreams. It is near impossible to get reliable info about anything. There is basically 3 ways how we can interpret those data. 1) take it as it is 2) take it as exaggeration 3) take it as understatement. I think the same also applies to NK. For game balance we should apply those 3 ways with reason.

With that in mind lets begin

Top Priority (mostly left overs from earlier rounds of suggestion):

RD modern line troops and specialist teams severly lacking, thus force players to rely on expensive infantry and further make some specialization decks ineffective.

- Zhanshi gets type 56-1 (RPD) as machine gun.
- Zhanshi 85 gets ZSL-56 as transport
- Zhanshi 85 gets type 81 as machine gun
- Ban-tank Fagot weapon upgrade to Konkurs (rename to Ban-tank Konkurs)


Reasoning:

Spoiler : :
Zhanshi is the second worst line inf right now and the 85s version is the worst modern infantry. With better mg they should compare more favorably to other line troops. This in turn will up the effectiveness of mech/armor decks. Also the access to ZSL will allow RD an alternative option in motorized decks. Konkurs will in turn offer a more effective infantry based defense against tanks.


RD tanks suffer from a overpopulated low end, cost ineffective mid end and a scarce high end

For more discussion about RD tanks visit: viewtopic.php?f=155&t=56580

- all kpvt armed tanks get 5 points price cut, except Ch'onma-Ho 4 (Ch'onma 1 and 2, both type 59)
- Ch'onma Ho 4 to 7 rpm
- ZTZ-88 gun range to 2275m
- 2 cards of ZTZ-85III
- 125mm gun armed ZTZ to 8 rpm (ZTZ-85IIA and 85III)

Reasoning:

Spoiler : :
The kpvt is inflating the price of NKs low end tanks, type 59 can't compare favorably to the Chinese ZTZ-59 and early Ch'onma suffer from 6 rpm, low armor and high price. 5 points less and they become much more attractive.

Increased gun range on ZTZ-88 would offer RD a viable option like the polish Merida, also a faster shooting Ch'onma 4 would make the best NK tank (except T-90) a viable medium tank option.

RD high end tanks are currently solely kept afloat by the T-90. With a second card of 85III we can field somehow similar numbers of heavy tanks like most other coalitions. Also all openly available Chinese sources cite the rpm of 125mm ZTZ as 8. In game this would mean better medium tank as 85IIA would be a viable option like T-72B1 and 85III will be able to keep up with damage output of similar priced class peers.


RD artillery selection is cluttered by redundant and low end options

- increase rate of fire of small caliber and open topped artillery. (PLZ-70, Tokchon 122 and 130)

Reasoning:

Spoiler : :
RD doesn't posses any fast reacting nor 10 HE arty. The usage of RD howitzers is like saturation or suppression fire. Currently the cheap 50 points NK arty fills this role better than the more expensive Tokchons. To make those 6 HE guns more appealing I suggest increase their rpm up to between 120mm mortar and the usual 10 salvo 30 sec aim time arty pieces. This would make them excellent saturation guns.


RD still have bad fire support vehicles

- SU-100 to 7 rpm and 35% acc

Reasoning:

Spoiler : :
compared to what some other coalition can bring in as fire support a simple price cut won't make the humble SU-100 good. With increased rpm and 5% more accuracy it would be quite good at 15 points.


RD lacks a cost effective or high end ASF like other coalition and the air force is riddles again with redundancies.

- NK MiG-29 gets authentic MRAAM missle loadout (2 x R-27R and 4 x R-60M)
- Su-27SK price cu to 140 points and 2 veteran per card (take away 2 R-27)
- Q-5IA load-out increased to 8 cluster bombs, weapon label fix to 250 kg, since China doesn't operate 450kg cluster
- A-5I load-out increased to 8 bombs and changed into napalm


Reasoning:

Spoiler : :
With appropriate pricing and veterancy Su-27SK could be the “high end” of RD ASF, and MiG-29 will need its authentic MRAAM load-out to be cost effective, right now it is just a over expensive helo hunter.

With only 4 bombs the Q-5I is a rather bad cluster bomber, it can have a max load of weapons up to 2000kg, this would mean 8 x 250kg bombs, distributed to 4 on center line and 2 under each wing. Get rid of the SRAAM and increase the bombs in the same way for the A-5, but with napalm to differentiate the two.

source: http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 006_2.html

强-5基本型经试飞后,正式装备部队,表现良好。强-5机内携带1000千克武器载荷而不带外挂时,能勉强作超音速飞行。

1977年4月加大航程的改型机的方案开始实施。方案包括7项重大改进项目,如将炸弹舱改为油箱舱,加大主油箱,并增设一个软油箱;改用加力推力为36.8千牛的涡喷-6甲Ⅲ型发动机等,命名为强-5I


After the basic Q-5 passed the testing and equipped the troops, it performed well. With an internal load of 1000kg and no additional external load it can barely fly supersonic.

After 1977 April the flight range expansion program started. Including 7 big improvements, like turning internal weapon bay into fuel tank, bigger main tank and a soft tank. Changed into the more powerful 36,8 kn WP-6AIII engine etc. Name was changed into Q-5I.


For a more illustrative image just start the China campaign in game. In intro you will see a Q-5 with 4 center line bombs and under wing rocket pods and fuel tank. As fly front line duty it can pass on the external fuel and fill both under wing pylons with weapons.


Re-role

Overall suggestions to reduce redundancies AND to increase competitiveness.

- Luzhandui re-role to airborne or light infantry (reduce to 10 men, price cut by 5 points and rename to kongjiangbing)

Spoiler : :
RD has two 15 men marine squads, while it does look like a lot of choices, but most of the time luzhandui is the better buy. Also if you take any specialization those choices are simply gone. Since NK is on a peninsula I think they keeping the marines is more logical.

For the Chinese airborne, it would be the 15th airborne corps, which actually deployed in NK in the 50s

more info here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... istory.htm

or

http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class1/ ... 13600.html

I will not translate the whole thing, if you want to know something, ask.


- Z-9 HJ-8 to good optics recon (price to 60 points)

Spoiler : :
RD doesn't have a fast recon chopper, which in turn is kinda limiting the usefulness of TY-90 since it needs a recon to be really useful. The ATGM Z-9 could fulfill this role very well if turned into a good optics recon. Same speed and provide anti ground capability. Tbh it is kinda useless in helo tab, too expensive for just those 4 missiles and historically it can be made like a prototype to the 1996s Z-9W recon chopper, which would be a very good if not exceptional recon.


- Gonbobyong to recon

Spoiler : :
This units is quite bad as 20 points unit in inf tab, but in recon tab it will actually fill out the blank of NK not having a shock recon squad.


- m1992 recon re role to ifv (price to 20 points)

Spoiler : :
Compared to Chinese infantry I think NK could have used more unique or better IFV to justify taking them. Right now the strelabus is already doing this by essentially being an ok-ish AA unit and BTR-80A simply being superior to what China can field , the m1992 would be like a budget BTR-90 for NK.


- bibanchungpo to rpg-7 FIST
- fanghuabing to napalm rocket launcher (The Lijian 90 launcher)


Spoiler : :
Just to differentiate them from the clone units with different names.


- JH-7A Feibao to 2 SEAD missiles and 2 or even 4 ATGM load out
- JH-7 to 24 x 250kg bomb load out

Spoiler : :
JH-7 is indeed the most advanced aircraft the coalition currently can field in game. It is intended for being a strike aircraft, since the coalition only has low survival-ability bomber it can provide a valuable platform for non suicide bomber. The possible load outs are seen as this in this graphic: http://b.hiphotos.baidu.com/baike/c0%3D ... 03c23a.jpg

The first two planes are the base JH-7 with a iron bomb load and the anti ship load (the anti ship missiles shown are YJ-7 which in game is considered ATGM). The third load out is for the Feibao with SEAD, anti ship (again YJ-7 is considered ATGM in game) and SRAAM load out.


New weapon/unit

Here are some suggestions primarily make RD different in some fields to other coalitions

-PF-98 anti-tank rocket

Spoiler : :
In game RD is a really RR heavy coalition, this new rocket is the successor of RR in the Chinese inventory. The name suggests it was introduced in 1998 and in fact the first revelation is in 1999 Macao Garrison, but as a prototype it would be in test and usage much earlier. There are 2 units which can benefit greatly from this weapon.
Right now Lijian 90 is a better unit than Spetznas, give them the PF-98 with AP round would make Spetznas the sole king of anti-infantry unit. The AP round is able to penetrate 800mm and up to 800m.

The other unit would be tankeshashou base model. Re role it to tankeshashou 95 and with multipurpose round. It has a combined HEAT, HE and napalm effect. Most importantly the range is 1800m Which will help the lack of China lacks infantry based ATGM.

http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 05257.html

translation only if asked to.


- QLZ-87 grenade rifle

Spoiler : :
give this weapon to Lie Ren and make them a 10 men elite recon squad, replacing the rpg. The rifle would fire farther than normal grenade launcher, but slower in rpm.


- NK 370mm RR tank

Spoiler : :
simple method to sling large amounts of explosives your enemies way. Can possibly be a powerful short distance support weapon.


- WS-1 rocket arty

Spoiler : :
High end 4 tube fast aiming 320mm rocket arty

http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 50237.html


- ZSL-90/92 apc

Spoiler : :
A better wheeled transport option for Chinese infantry, immune against 7,62mm front and side. Basically a WZ-551 with a 12mm mg instead of a auto cannon.

- HQ-17
Spoiler : :
Imported from Russia in mid 90s to close the gap in field AA capabilities. Which ironically the mech/armor decks in game lacks.

- Ch'onma-HO 5

Spoiler : :
Could be the 100 points upward tank in RD with manpad and ATGM slapped on it. Personally I would again put emphasis on firepower.


Inconsistencies


-NK MiG21 ATGM plane availability doesn't make sense regarding the pricing and capability of the aircraft
-ZTQ-62 recon gun rpm is much lower compared to type 63 despite have the same gun and vehicle dimension.
-F-7b availability is 5/4/0/3/0 not 6/5/4/0/3 like china's mig.
-Mig-23ml is 95 pts when the same plane for East Germany is 85.
-T-72M HE range is 1925 and AP range is 2100.

Afterwords

As 1/3 of RedFor and a 2 country coalition I believe the options should be as viable as possible

I thank all people who participated in this thread and contributed. Lets hope eugen can make some if not all of these changes happen to RD so we can say Red Dragon is finally great!
Last edited by keldon on Wed 25 May 2016 17:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby urogard » Wed 25 May 2016 16:49

2 cards for ZTZ-85-III now please
esp since leo 2a4 is already at 2 cards, so is chally 1 mk 3

rd also has no other tanks in the 90-160 pts range. there's no other coalition that has such a bad selection.
even scandis get 6 strv 121

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Xeno426 » Wed 25 May 2016 19:26

keldon wrote:RD lacks a cost effective or high end ASF like other coalition and the air force is riddles again with redundancies.

Redundancies? Good lord, has it ever.

keldon wrote:With only 4 bombs the Q-5I is a rather bad cluster bomber, it can have a max load of weapons up to 2000kg, this would mean 8 x 250kg bombs, distributed to 4 on center line and 2 under each wing. Get rid of the SRAAM and increase the bombs in the same way for the A-5, but with napalm to differentiate the two.

The Q-5A production model had six hardpoints per wing; the inboard was used for various munitions, the interwing was wet (and almost exclusively used for fuel tanks), and the outboard could carry only a small bomb (somewhere between 100-250kg) and was usually used for a self-defense SRAAM when used at all. The Q-5I replaced the weapons bay with fuel and added four fuselage (not centerline) hardpoints.

keldon wrote:- JH-7A Feibao to 2 SEAD missiles and 2 or even 4 ATGM load out
- JH-7 to 24 x 250kg bomb load out

I somewhat doubt the actual combat feasibility of the 24 bomb loadout, much like on the Su-24M (drag intex would be massive). Still, a large bomber would be nice. The link image also seems to include the JH-7A. The number of guided missiels on the JH-7A of the SEAD missile size also seems to be limited to four, and I wonder at the commonality of such a mixed loadout.

keldon wrote:The first two planes are the base JH-7 with a iron bomb load and the anti ship load (the anti ship missiles shown are YJ-7 which in game is considered ATGM). The third load out is for the Feibao with SEAD, anti ship (again YJ-7 is considered ATGM in game) and SRAAM load out.

It's an anti-ship missile in the game as well, look at the Z-9C in the Naval tab (though that sports the radar version). The TV-guided version of the missile is the closest thing to an AGM that China has within the timeframe.

keldon wrote:-NK MiG21 ATGM plane availability doesn't make sense regarding the pricing and capability of the aircraft

Not to mention they're redundant with each other and the Su-25K.

keldon wrote:-Mig-23ml is 95 pts when the same plane for East Germany is 85.
[/quote]
The DPRK also received the R-24R missile, so the aircraft could be equipped with that as well. It might even justify it being more expensive than the DDR aircraft.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby DeckCheney » Wed 25 May 2016 19:46

Anybody want to do something about RD's miserable Helo tab?

Give S-8 rockets to their Mi-8s in place of the S-5s? Plz?
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Xeno426 » Wed 25 May 2016 19:48

DeckCheney wrote:Anybody want to do something about RD's miserable Helo tab?

Give S-8 rockets to their Mi-8s in place of the S-5s? Plz?

Does the DPRK have them, though? China doesn't; they have 57, 90 and 130mm rockets, the last two indigenous, and I don't know if they saw helicopter use.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Wed 25 May 2016 20:51

Xeno426 wrote:The Q-5A production model had six hardpoints per wing; the inboard was used for various munitions, the interwing was wet (and almost exclusively used for fuel tanks), and the outboard could carry only a small bomb (somewhere between 100-250kg) and was usually used for a self-defense SRAAM when used at all. The Q-5I replaced the weapons bay with fuel and added four fuselage (not centerline) hardpoints.


originally i endorsed a 6 bomb loadout in filling all fuselage pylons, but i saw somewhere the most outward wing pylon was carriying 90 mm rocket pod, so i thought it may as well carry one 250 kg cluster bomb. Also i'm aware that that pylon is mostly used for SRAAM, the site i linked mentioned it too, but like i said, saw somewhere a pic with rocket pod.

To be honest a increase to 6 bombs would already help. RD cluster is really pathetic right now. Also sorry about the centerline thing, i learned all terms regarding aviation in Chinese and sometimes i translate it wrong.

Xeno426 wrote:I somewhat doubt the actual combat feasibility of the 24 bomb loadout, much like on the Su-24M (drag intex would be massive). Still, a large bomber would be nice. The link image also seems to include the JH-7A. The number of guided missiels on the JH-7A of the SEAD missile size also seems to be limited to four, and I wonder at the commonality of such a mixed loadout.


My initial idea is to add flavor by making the plane similar to SK SEAD F-16 with mixed weapons, i'm personally fine with 2 SEAD and 2 ATGM even if those 26 AP missiles aren't lethal threat for super heavies under most circumstances.

As for the commonality of this mixed loadout, nobody can say for sure, the headlines says it is a vanguard plane in a strike formation with suppression capability. This change though would free up the JH-7 to be something else like i said earlier in thread. Given how all bombers in RD are bascially suicide bombers the JH-7 would add some nice capability.

I have no doubt the iron bomb JH-7 would fly horribly with such a load, but there are already few planes with large payload, also on several occasions saw 18 and 24 bombs as "standard", and yes the image also include JH-7A as i indicated in my explanation.

Xeno426 wrote:
keldon wrote:-NK MiG21 ATGM plane availability doesn't make sense regarding the pricing and capability of the aircraft

Not to mention they're redundant with each other and the Su-25K.


I somehow remember when RD didn't have ATGM beside those 2 planes and even then they were horrible. Then DLC 2 happened and we got JH-7 but also the Su-25K got re roled into a ATGM plane. In hindsight maybe things could have gone differently, but right now at least the availbility and veterancy should be appropriate. Maybe even re role 1 of them into a 2 x 500 kg bomber that comes in cheap and numerous for NK, i guess this would be somehow more beneficial for NK.
Last edited by keldon on Wed 25 May 2016 23:09, edited 1 time in total.
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