Fine-tuning NK/China

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Admiral Piett
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Admiral Piett » Fri 5 Aug 2016 17:09

Bougnas wrote:Btw is it already having 8 rpm?


Nope, both the 85-III and the 85-IIA are stuck at 7 RPM. The 85-III is pretty good, but with 8 RPM it could be better. The 85-IIA might actually become cost effective with 8 RPM. Along with its 5% accuracy boost it got in the patch notes, but never in game.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 5 Aug 2016 17:15

Bougnas wrote:Btw is it already having 8 rpm?


nope, but it was brought up often enough and is on the first post. The autoloader needs to be modified anyway for different length of Chinese shells, so 8 rpm isn't far fetched.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 7 Aug 2016 18:39

Since the thread kinda went into tank land, i'll translate a comprehensive post on Chinese forum about the development history of the Chinese MBTs. Pics are too big to be embedded so follow the link to see.

I'm using the Chinese naming of type + number as primary translation, cause the ZTZ designation came a bit later and doesn't really apply to all those interim solutions PLA had.

The original thread

http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1115859-1-1.html
Spoiler : :
From 59 to 99, the road of Chinese MBT development.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118553/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

Recently a set of pictures about the ZTZ-99 prototype has again raised the interest towards domestic tanks. Many people have the impression that PLA jumped suddenly from type-59 to type-96 and type-99 of today. In fact the Chinese tank development is far more complicated than that, behind the current successes are many failed tanks due to various reasons.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

Due to historical reasons and the influence of „old brother“ Soviet Union, the PLA had very strong affection for tanks. After the establishing the country in 1949 China soon purchased 10 divisions worth of T-34/85 from Soviet Union and they became the main force of the new Chinese armored units. China also conducted low number of imitation production, the imitations are called type-58 medium tanks. But since more modern models appeared the PLA abandoned improvement projects on this WW2 tank. The pic is from 1951 national day parade.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

In 1955 China got hold of the blueprint for T-54A and decided to base the main force domestic tank on it. In 1958 the first imitation model rolled off the factory and was assigned a designation next year, this became the famous type-59 tank. What the PLA couldn't know at the time was that in coming decade the type-59 tank would be the only MBT in use. Pic is from 10 year anniversary at 1959 national day parade.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

Even before the decision about copying the T-54 was settled the PLA was developing a light tank based on it. WZ131 light tank had the goal to provide a vehicle suitable for the combat condition of southern China. Compared to type-59, which weights 36 tons the WZ131 downsized the main gun and protection thus granting it a weight of 21 tons. The designation was carried out as the usual year of service, thus the type-62 light tank was born. (note: Chinese AFV project are headed by „WZ“ with 3 numbers. The first number „1“ stands for tank, second number stands for weight class, 1 for heavy, 2 for medium and 3 for light, finally the last number stands for the sequence of the project.)

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

WZ211 is a domestic amphibious tank from the same time period of type-59, based on the Soviet PT-76. But the Chinese engineers didn't completely copy the original design, but instead married the PT-76 chassis to a type-62 turret, resulted in the type-63 amphibious tank with much more firepower. At the dawn of the Chinese AFV industry, by doing imitation and reasonable innovation the military had created a few usable models, but due to the rise of far left ideology the domestic AFV projects would soon hit the wall.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

type-59-16 light tank is a 10 year anniversary project, the goal was to develop a 16 tons tank. To fulfill the harsh weight limit, the designers had to reduce the main gun to 76mm, road wheels to 4. The result of those extreme diet was a tank with no fire power and protection compared to contemporary western tanks, a commissioning into service wasn't even considered. The only thing left from type-59-16 is this picture of the scale model, do take note of the political slogans at those times „overtake UK and USA“.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

The Soviet made IS-2 heavy tank was imported with T-34/85 at the same time, all in all China had purchased 82 vehicles. Those heavy tanks which fought fiercely against German tigers during WW2 was regarded as elite forces at the beginning of the people's republic. A part of those vehicles joined the campaign of the volunteer army in the Korean war. The picture is from 1956 national day.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

The IS-2 was becoming obsolete as time went, the PLA wished for a successor. In 1960 WZ111 project was started, the call was to develop a domestic heavy tank which can contend against the US M103 or even Soviet T-10. WZ111 was the only Chinese heavy tank with a physical prototype, the design was based on IS-2 and heavily influenced by the whole IS series. But during tests WZ111 showed several difficult issues, the most important one being the inability to produce a reliable engine to propel that huge beast. In 1964 WZ111 came silently to a closure, only the test chassis remains.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

At the end of the 50s the Sino-Soviet relationship began to worse, in the 60s it went down to hostile level. During the border conflict in 1969 the Soviet T-62 shocked the PLA deeply, and that tank was even second tier at the time. The fear of Soviet army drove a batch of tank projects to be made, but the feeble industrial capacity was the death warrant for those projects.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

WZ132 light tank started in 1967, originally projected to replace type-62. After the Sino-Soviet border conflict, the PLA was in desperate need of fire power thus WZ132 got the 100mm gun of type-59 tank. Although the „glass cannon“ was successful under trial, the technical requirement continuously went up, the project also underwent several revisions and finally it went outside of the capacity of the industry. After few years of fruitless torment the WZ132 was abandoned and PLA was left with type-62.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

The WZ122 medium tank from 1967 was another victim of way too high expectations, the original plan was for it to be the successor of type-59. At the end of 1969 the requirement was upped to fight against elite T-64 tank. The result was a prototype vehicle with hydraulic transmission, hydraulic assisted direction change and hydraulic suspension (the 3 hydraulics), armed with a 120mm gun and 4 ATGM.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

Side view of WZ122A, take note of the low mode of suspension and the loose track. WZ122A's hydraulic can reproduce some attributes akin to modern MBTs. But building a prototype doesn't mean it is feasible for mass production, it was way to avangarde for the Chinese industry capacity which simply couldn't produce this „SciFi tank“.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

After the failure of WZ122A project, the PLA reduced the technological requirement and started a comparatively more simple project WZ122B in November 27th 1970. The prototype used mechanical transmission, mechanical suspension and mechanical steering (the 3 mechanical, pretty low level stuff), but the vehicle also failed due to technological difficulties.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

The „great leap forward“ for tanks resulted in PLA could only use type-59 for a long period of time, and necessitated to improve them to apply first aid. In 1963, project WZ121 for a improved type-59 started. With a new smooth bore 100mm gun and the imitation of IR searchlight captured during the Sino-Soviet conflict, the basic requirement of night combat was fulfilled. After the improvement the type-59 was named type-69 MBT. The type-69 produced during the cultural revolution was of extreme bad quality and the troops sent them back en masse. Later those same returned goods were resold to Iraq en masse. [thx Saddam] The picture is about AFV personnel attending a study session, the first tank on the left is a type-69. [followed by ZTZ-59D, ZTZ-88 and possibly the ZTZ-96, on the other side we have ZSL-92 and ZDF-89 (which has a wrong ingame model). Judging by the banner it was a session about equipment management in 1995.]

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

After the cultural revolution tank development went finally back on track. At the end of 70s due to the improved relationship with the west, China found ways to import advanced AFV technologies. The type-69 improved with western technology are designated type-79. The 105mm rifled gun which type-79 uses is considered second tier technology by the west, but is still way better than any domestic product at the time; besides that, the electronic equipment enhanced the search and accuracy ability of Chinese tanks greatly.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

Imported technology also brought a new opportunity for failed projects during the cultural revolution. In 1978 PLA restarted the development of new generation of MBT, in March 1979, a prototype vehicle named 1224 rolled off factory. Despite carrying the WZ122 project number the proto tank lost all Soviet resemblance, instead it follows the western way with clear geometry and a welded turret. That was a first for a domestic tank.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

Proto 1224 rear view, from this angle it almost looks like a pirated Leopard 2. Before 1224 the PLA has considered importing the German Leo. But at the end the plan was abandoned due to exorbitant cost, the military changed to assimilating new technology to develop the Leo 2 like1224 project. At the end of 1979, 1224 finished technological trial, the second gen domestic MBT went into prototype design phase.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

Unlike to the avangardistic looking 1224, another competitor for second gen MBT was the proto vehcle1226 with its traditional egg form cast turret, this could be seen as the conservative tendency of the military. After trial PLA found many reliability issues on 1226, finally the 1226 project lost to type-80 MBT with technological smaller risk.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

The victor of second gen MBT competition: type-80 tank. The design of type-80 is very conservative, its turret is basically borrowed from type-79. But the chassis of type-80 showed clear improvement: with 6 road wheels the decade old curse of 5 road wheels was broken.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

Despite the victory of type-80 in the competition it didn't got mass adopted, instead it underwent various modifications big and small and finally in 1988 was officially finalized, that's the reason for the name type-88 MBT. And after that it just got adopted in small scale by the troops [something about 300 vehicles], the PLA was obviously not really satisfied about that tank. The picture is from 50s anniversary national day parade.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

After the cultural revolution China was near economic collapse. After assessment of international strategic situation the leadership decided on „军队要忍耐” (The military has to wait/hold out), the priority of many weapons except strategic ones were greatly reduced. In the long period of 80s to 90s the main stay tanks of PLA was still type-59, type-59 mod and type-59 modded into insanity. [Take note of the ZBD-86B in the background with its 30mm auto cannon turret]

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

During those years many military manufacturers were near bankruptcy [The J-10 chief engineer need to sell noodles to keep himself afloat]. But the Chinese tank developers weren't twirl thumbs, many hoped to gain access to foreign markets, for one it can provide bread and second it would keep piling up experience for the staff. The type-85 export variant was born under this background, it was based on the type-80 with a western style welded turret, which even the PLA didn't get. Several hundred type-85 was successfully exported to Pakistan.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

Based on type-85 series China also developed the type-90 export variant, this tank later further developed into the MBT-2000 tank which Pakistan uses. The successful experience gained by type-85 and type-90 further influenced the development of PLA's new generation of tanks.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

Zhang Wannian reviews a Soviet T-80 tank. After the fall of Soviet Union in 1991 a large number of elite Soviet equipment became accessible. Because the Soviet was regarded as powerful rival for a long time, China had got through various ways to obtain those Soviet tanks for study, the lessons and experiences were incorporated for own projects.


http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

The 90s, after combine all those previous experiences the PLA produced the type-96 for its own use. The type-96 is the true successor to type-59, although it is still mid to low-end compared to other advanced contemporary tanks, its cheap costs make it suitable for mass production. With type-96 as the starting line PLA finally started to mass convert to a new MBT.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

At the same time when type-96 went into service, another high-end tank named WZ123 for own use was making steady progress. Unlike the type-96 intended for mass adoption, WZ123 was the desire of PLA to forge a world class tank. The new tank was finalized in 1999 and named type-99 [take note of the manpad on the right side. All trials for the basic model was indeed finished in 1998]

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

In 1999 the freshly finalized type-99 tanks joined the 50s anniversary national day parade and appeared for the first time to the public. It marked the PLA finally got equipped with an advanced third gen MBT. [take note of the different turret shape compared to 96]

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

1999 was the starting line for type-99, the later years brought various upgrade program to keep up the competitiveness against other tanks. The tank was subsequently up-armored, improved the electronics to further improve the capabilities. [Picture is from the second improvement program]

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

The mass produced type-96 also underwent up-armoring and developed into type-96A. During the Russian tank biathlon in 2014, type-96 showed despite a lack in engine power it had a better FCS than T-72B3M.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118552/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

In recent years the so called type-99 grand mod aka third upgrade program is slowly making its appearance. It has a heavily up-armored new turretand a more powerful engine, the overall combat capability is estimated as competitive to the US M1A2. In 2014 during the „peace mission“ exercise conducted by SCO, the type-99 grand mod made its first official public appearance.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118552/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

While the quantity and quality of tanks is increasing at same time the PLA didn't forget the special requirements of geography has on tanks. After many years of negligence, light tank program resurfaced, this version of trial light tank is supposedly for plateau environment like Tibet and Qinhai.

http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118552/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

From copying the T-54 to ZTZ-99A the PLA came a long way. The Chinese engineers finally found the correct answer and direction.
Last edited by keldon on Sun 7 Aug 2016 18:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Razzmann » Sun 7 Aug 2016 18:42

Do you expect us to read all that? :shock:

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Mike » Sun 7 Aug 2016 18:42

Might wanna put that in a spoiler. A bit long. :P
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 7 Aug 2016 18:51

oops, forgot the spoiler. But yeah, it is the whole development history, so it is long.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby remilia019 » Sun 7 Aug 2016 18:58

Would be nice if we get that Leopard wannabe tank.


http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg ZPTU on a WZ-122 o_o I want
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby hansbroger » Sun 7 Aug 2016 19:16

Just read that the PLZ-45 used as NORINCO produced variant of the GC-45 howitzer (specifically Austrian GNH-45), the towed variant of which is supposedly designated PLL01/WA021. This would give the PLZ-45 [Not Yet and Should Be Included] range and accuracy comparable to the Denel G5. If true this would provide a SPH in the class of the MSTA if not the M109A6.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 7 Aug 2016 19:28

remilia019 wrote:Would be nice if we get that Leopard wannabe tank.


http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg ZPTU on a WZ-122 o_o I want


I would rather not, those projects failed with a reason. NK could provide those manpad tanks for flavor, and China should do the high-end.

hansbroger wrote:PLZ-45


Well, already talked enough about this unit, really should be in the game. But whatever, i'm personally quite content with BM-24...
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Admiral Piett » Sun 7 Aug 2016 19:31

Lol, yeah. We are missing 10-second arty, but shit MLRS from the 1940-50s work better than 95% of the MLRS in game, because..."just Eugen things."

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