Fine-tuning NK/China

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Bougnas
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Sat 13 Aug 2016 18:37

remilia019 wrote:I still would much prefer a Su-27SK with 2 less missile, 140pts, and 2 at Veteran, or a Polish copy of MiG-29 for North Koreans.
(BTW, can we also get Su-27S back to 150pts with that?)

I don't understand why when Red Dragons have so many artillery to choose from ITF. . . Red Dragons in game is so lackluster in artillery. . .

Chonmaho V is probably my biggest Red Dragon wish in so far now. . .


A Su-27SK with less missiles also seems to be more realistic as IIRC Xeno pointed out that it couldn't get that much ECM with so many missiles. So in order to keep the ECM the Su should actually have less missiles.

A Polish copy of the Mig-29 for NK isn't possible however as they didn't have the R-73. But IMO having a 4xR-60M + 2 R-27R and a R-60M-only loadout for the NK Mig-29 could be interesting.

The former would be quite decent as an ASF while the latter would be relatively cheap and also quite close to the NL F-16A. It could be perfect as a heli-hunter and as a dogfighter.


China would probably benefit more than NK from new arties as they are somewhat more advanced than what they currently have (PLZ-89 and 45 and several modern MLRS).


Most of the units (not only the arties or the MLRS but also the non-radar SPAAGs and other stuff) NK could get aren't really

improvements but they could make the nation more realistic (by removing unhistorical stuff as these new units are somewhat

redundant) and would bring more variety in the roster (better armored arties, perhaps MLRS transports, wheeled AA transport, some

heavy SPAAGs that would be great for fire support or base defense, heavy MLRS that could provide more firepower, actually decent

152mm SPGs...)




On the NK tank roster: I would gladly remove the T-90S and the T-72M if the Chonma Ho V and some stat tweaks were added.

The Chonma Ho IV had a new, vastly improved turret. 7 rpm seems pretty much deserved and would really help the tank.

Moreover, the whole patchwork of FCS upgrades from earlier variants has been turned into a fully integrated, pretty advanced FCS and the stabilizers have been improved.
NK doesn't build fancy stuff like USSR and China do, but this is a late FCS, so i think that a 5% accuracy and stab boost (so to 55/25%) or even more for the stabs if they were actually advanced is possible.

This would already be a good way to get a better tank line, and the CH V would pretty much be a IV with more armor (14?), better accuracy and stabs, and an autoloader for the main gun. This would pretty much push it to a sort of DDR T-72M1 with better accuracy but less ROF.

This way NK could have a fairly decent medium tank line that isn't too imbalanced in price (it's not the 170pt T-90 with a 65pt T-72M or CH IV) so they can field relatively good numbers of them, and some of the low end units could be also slightly changed.

For example the T-62D could be renamed to Chonma Ho IM and the recon T-55 to T-54-3 (minor changes), the Type 59-I could receive a variant with slat armor and a T-55 line could be added (if useful at all).
Last edited by Bougnas on Sat 13 Aug 2016 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Admiral Piett
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Admiral Piett » Sat 13 Aug 2016 18:42

remilia019 wrote:I don't understand why when Red Dragons have so many artillery to choose from ITF. . . Red Dragons in game is so lackluster in artillery. . .

Chonmaho V is probably my biggest Red Dragon wish in so far now. . .


Outside of a handful of artillery pieces that would have been really nice (large MLRS, ten second artillery, NorK 120mm mortar, that NorK recoil-less rifle thing), most would just be flavourful garbage. That still would have been an improvement over generic or fictional garbage, but garbage it would remain. :lol:

In an ideal world, you would have:

- Three or four new artillery pieces: large MLRS (China, North Korea or both), ten second artillery (China) and the recoil-less rifle thing (North Korea). Instantly moved from worst artillery section in the game to one of the better and more varied.
- NorK 120mm mortar replaced by the real thing. 1 AV and longer range than other 5 HE mortars (Cat C). Flavour, historical accuracy and provides them with an above-average mortar.
- NorK BM-21 replaced by one of the 5,000 different indigenous 122mm MLRS. Flavour and historical accuracy. Like this for example (Cat C I believe):
http://s12.postimg.org/jkjjot0rx/s4b.jpg
- The fake NorK 152mm in game replaced by one of several real self-propelled 152mm designs. Flavour and historical accuracy. Like this for example (Cat C):
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/9465 ... cdee_o.jpg

I really want the Ch'onma Ho V as well.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Razzmann » Sat 13 Aug 2016 18:47

What about that triple 203mm or something barrel thing? :lol:

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sat 13 Aug 2016 18:50

So, i was waiting for that guy who did the summary on ZTZ-96 to do the same for ZTZ-85, but it seems some other guy got impatient and made his own observation/research public. He says exactly that his post is incomplete on some of the interim developments, but after what i have already read and his analysis, I think i got a pretty solid grasp on that tank line.

I'll summarize what i have learned, not translation 1:1. Also click on the pic to see, since most of them are too big to be embedded.

original post (starting from post number 13): http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2274754-1-1.html

Spoiler : :
From ZTZ-85 to ZTZ-96

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... staakz.jpg

This is the original BK1851, a test vehicle for a welded turret ala western tanks with sharp geometry. The chassis is from a type-80-II. The turret itself still shows the heritage of a rounded Soviet style build, and it is probably just a modded type-80 turret. This would be the original ZTZ-85, judging by the name it was prolly from 1985.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... jfkcmm.jpg

This tank is called "storm", cause they wanted to sell it to export market, a cool name is needed, you know? Anyway the turret has a different structure compared to BK1851, still you can see the heritage of rounded turret compared to the tank behind it. The engine compartment has a different structure too. This is believed to be the ZTZ-85-I.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... 50uutn.jpg

This is the "storm 2", the turret already took the shape typical for later ZTZ-85.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... s4106x.jpg

ZTZ-85-II, the poster believe it to be the same as "storm 2". The most noticable feature is the lack of 6 bolts on the vehicle roof for the front armor, which is found on all later 85 series.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... 6kot2z.jpg

The poster assume this is the ZTZ-85-IIA, based on the current availbe info. It showed up basically at same time for the export market. The main differences are: those 6 bolts on the roof; arrangment of smoke grenade launcher; Changes of the chassis, visible in different position of lights and covered up storagespaces above the tracks; a short barreled 105mm cannon; the turret roof is less bulgy. My personal opinion is that the ZTZ-85-II was only a prototyp and according to some sources i read was only built once. The 85-IIA on the other hand would be the main export model.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... ygfotd.jpg

Finally Pakistan choose to buy the ZTZ-85-IIA, but they wanted a 125mm gun. So the ZTZ-85-IIAP was born (P stand obviously for Pakistan), and it was the first tank with a 125mm gun. To accommodate the gun and autoloader ther turret has to be modified.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... hqhwx4.jpg

The ZTZ-85-IIM is a slightly improved 85-IIAP intended for other export customers. It also served as the base improvment model which is later to become ZTZ-96. The poster says a visual difference is how the mg is mounted on roof center and not on the hatch ring, this is also shared by the 85-IIA. But i'm not so sure, because the bad image quality can fool your eyes.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... hjamhk.jpg

The ZTZ-96 base model. combining all those previous experiences and using the 85-IIM as starting point the tank was born. The poster says the turret roof is more bulgy, but again i can't really make out the difference.

85III.jpg
85III.jpg (149.11 KiB) Viewed 1128 times


The ZTZ-85-III as seen in the game. It is basically a 85-IIM with a 1000hp engine and ERA. one way to distinguish it is to look at the engine compartment. The exhaust should be on the left side unlike all other 85/96 tanks. Also the model is wrong ingame...


This would mean the tank line development should be:

ZTZ-85 (test vehicle with a firsttime welded turret, 1985)
ZTZ-85-I (all remains is a museum piece)
ZTZ-85-II (one vehicle built, standard 105mm gun of mid 80s)
ZTZ-85-IIA (standard export model, shorter barrel 105mm gun)
ZTZ-85-IIAP (125mm gun, scored sells to Pakistan, delievered in 1990)
ZTZ-85-IIM (intended for further export, but also served as the starting model for further development)
ZTZ-85-III (the engine sucked, so Pakistan didn't buy it on the spot, basically the ZTZ-96, date should be around 1994)
ZTZ-96 (the base model commisioned into service, finalization in 1995 and delievery in 1996)

What does this mean for those tanks already in game? I personally would say the 85-II should prolly get the same side armor as later variants, since those cages are missing on the model. 85-IIA should renamed as AP, judging by the gun and introdate it is the one sold to Pakistan, and i think it could be uparmored a bit, like 16 front? make it the 100 pts+ tank would certainly help RD, ofc idealy the T-72M would get rerolled to fill the 85 pts hole.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Admiral Piett » Sat 13 Aug 2016 18:54

Razzmann wrote:What about that triple 203mm or something barrel thing? :lol:


Yeah, apparently it is massive RR-type system. 370mm. :lol:

keldon wrote:Snip.


Cool! Nice read.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby remilia019 » Sat 13 Aug 2016 18:56

Bougnas wrote:
remilia019 wrote:I still would much prefer a Su-27SK with 2 less missile, 140pts, and 2 at Veteran, or a Polish copy of MiG-29 for North Koreans.
(BTW, can we also get Su-27S back to 150pts with that?)

I don't understand why when Red Dragons have so many artillery to choose from ITF. . . Red Dragons in game is so lackluster in artillery. . .

Chonmaho V is probably my biggest Red Dragon wish in so far now. . .


A Su-27SK with less missiles also seems to be more realistic as IIRC Xeno pointed out that it couldn't get that much ECM with so many missiles. So in order to keep the ECM the Su should actually have less missiles.

A Polish copy of the Mig-29 for NK isn't possible however as they didn't have the R-73. But IMO having a 4xR-60M + 2 R-27R and a R-60M-only loadout for the NK Mig-29 could be interesting.

The former would be quite decent as an ASF while the latter would be relatively cheap and also quite close to the NL F-16A. It could be perfect as a heli-hunter and as a dogfighter.


China would probably benefit more than NK from new arties as they are somewhat more advanced than what they currently have (PLZ-89 and 45 and several modern MLRS).


Most of the units (not only the arties or the MLRS but also the non-radar SPAAGs and other stuff) NK could get aren't really

improvements but they could make the nation more realistic (by removing unhistorical stuff as these new units are somewhat

redundant) and would bring more variety in the roster (better armored arties, perhaps MLRS transports, wheeled AA transport, some

heavy SPAAGs that would be great for fire support or base defense, heavy MLRS that could provide more firepower, actually decent

152mm SPGs...)


Yeah my Su-27SK comment is just echoing what Xeno repeated plenty times btw, if its 2 less missiles for better cost(and please at least 55% accuracy) to have better cost as well. we could get a competent ASF.

I think I prefer the cheap one if Su-27SK change is implemented, and the expensive one if not for the MiG-29, they would fill up different price groups nicely.

its easily one of the better faction for artillery, good SPAAG would also quite make up for the lack of heli in the coalition. I'd also wish it's gonna get decent enough tanks, even if they still lagged behind(just not as behind as it is now), and the infantry weapons they use during the time(type 80mg if Zhanshi can't get type 81, QBZ 95, HJ-8 team, konkurs team). hell it would be a solid faction.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby remilia019 » Sat 13 Aug 2016 18:59

keldon wrote:So, i was waiting for that guy who did the summary on ZTZ-96 to do the same for ZTZ-85, but it seems some other guy got impatient and made his own observation/research public. He says exactly that his post is incomplete on some of the interim developments, but after what i have already read and his analysis, I think i got a pretty solid grasp on that tank line.

I'll summarize what i have learned, not translation 1:1. Also click on the pic to see, since most of them are too big to be embedded.

original post (starting from post number 13): http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2274754-1-1.html

Spoiler : :
From ZTZ-85 to ZTZ-96

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... staakz.jpg

This is the original BK1851, a test vehicle for a welded turret ala western tanks with sharp geometry. The chassis is from a type-80-II. The turret itself still shows the heritage of a rounded Soviet style build, and it is probably just a modded type-80 turret. This would be the original ZTZ-85, judging by the name it was prolly from 1985.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... jfkcmm.jpg

This tank is called "storm", cause they wanted to sell it to export market, a cool name is needed, you know? Anyway the turret has a different structure compared to BK1851, still you can see the heritage of rounded turret compared to the tank behind it. The engine compartment has a different structure too. This is believed to be the ZTZ-85-I.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... 50uutn.jpg

This is the "storm 2", the turret already took the shape typical for later ZTZ-85.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... s4106x.jpg

ZTZ-85-II, the poster believe it to be the same as "storm 2". The most noticable feature is the lack of 6 bolts on the vehicle roof for the front armor, which is found on all later 85 series.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... 6kot2z.jpg

The poster assume this is the ZTZ-85-IIA, based on the current availbe info. It showed up basically at same time for the export market. The main differences are: those 6 bolts on the roof; arrangment of smoke grenade launcher; Changes of the chassis, visible in different position of lights and covered up storagespaces above the tracks; a short barreled 105mm cannon; the turret roof is less bulgy. My personal opinion is that the ZTZ-85-II was only a prototyp and according to some sources i read was only built once. The 85-IIA on the other hand would be the main export model.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... ygfotd.jpg

Finally Pakistan choose to buy the ZTZ-85-IIA, but they wanted a 125mm gun. So the ZTZ-85-IIAP was born (P stand obviously for Pakistan), and it was the first tank with a 125mm gun. To accommodate the gun and autoloader ther turret has to be modified.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... hqhwx4.jpg

The ZTZ-85-IIM is a slightly improved 85-IIAP intended for other export customers. It also served as the base improvment model which is later to become ZTZ-96. The poster says a visual difference is how the mg is mounted on roof center and not on the hatch ring, this is also shared by the 85-IIA. But i'm not so sure, because the bad image quality can fool your eyes.

http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... hjamhk.jpg

The ZTZ-96 base model. combining all those previous experiences and using the 85-IIM as starting point the tank was born. The poster says the turret roof is more bulgy, but again i can't really make out the difference.

85III.jpg


The ZTZ-85-III as seen in the game. It is basically a 85-IIM with a 1000hp engine and ERA. one way to distinguish it is to look at the engine compartment. The exhaust should be on the left side unlike all other 85/96 tanks. Also the model is wrong ingame...


This would mean the tank line development should be:

ZTZ-85 (test vehicle with a firsttime welded turret, 1985)
ZTZ-85-I (all remains is a museum piece)
ZTZ-85-II (one vehicle built, standard 105mm gun of mid 80s)
ZTZ-85-IIA (standard export model, shorter barrel 105mm gun)
ZTZ-85-IIAP (125mm gun, scored sells to Pakistan, delievered in 1990)
ZTZ-85-IIM (intended for further export, but also served as the starting model for further development)
ZTZ-85-III (the engine sucked, so Pakistan didn't buy it on the spot, basically the ZTZ-96, date should be around 1994)
ZTZ-96 (the base model commisioned into service, finalization in 1995 and delievery in 1996)

What does this mean for those tanks already in game? I personally would say the 85-II should prolly get the same side armor as later variants, since those cages are missing on the model. 85-IIA should renamed as AP, judging by the gun and introdate it is the one sold to Pakistan, and i think it could be uparmored a bit, like 16 front? make it the 100 pts+ tank would certainly help RD, ofc idealy the T-72M would get rerolled to fill the 85 pts hole.

You're kindling my hope for a ZTZ-96
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Sat 13 Aug 2016 19:05

Some of the price and stats for low end tanks in RD are also quite strange, such as the base NK Type 59 being more expensive than the recon T-55 or the recon Type 55 being worse than otehr t-55s.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sat 13 Aug 2016 19:11

remilia019 wrote:You're kindling my hope for a ZTZ-96


statewise it is already in the game. The 85III does its job quite good, what it needs is 8 rpm.

What i also want to point out is in the 80s there were alot of development and upgrade project running at the same time. All those old ZTZ-59/69/79 are getting updated, parallel is those projects like ZTZ-80/85 which produced a new chassis. But the early model would bascially all share the same stats sans minor differences. That is already apparant by comparing the current ZTZ-88 with ZTZ-59-IIA (which should be ZTZ-69-II if going by the model...). If the Yogo/Fin DLC hits and touches upon T-55 then those early ZTZ-88/85 would instantly become obsolete, which is quite a joke when you think about it. Thats also the reason why i said 85 should go up the hierachy, but it remains to be seen, when the DLC lands. Nevertheless it would be a good oppurtunity to take a look at the RD tank balance then.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby remilia019 » Sat 13 Aug 2016 19:19

Well, T-55 probably needed a buff as well anyways, but I hope Type 59 buff comes with as well (or just give Type 59D. . . )

If we're salvaging, I think having 80~85pts T-72M(depending whether its East German or Wilk Copy) is a good idea, and then we get 100pts version of ZTZ-85-IIAP(or actually just make A and AP diff tanks? or make A and M version since AP is for Pakistan?)

But Motorized will get a hit if ZTZ-85-IIA got 100pts, unless T-72 becomes accessible to Motor
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