Fine-tuning NK/China

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keldon
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 26 Aug 2016 17:09

I'm aware, that eugen is unlikely to do something drastic about NK/China in this stage of game now. So this is not a “please change everything right now” post, but should rather be seen as the “Should/could have be” roster. The sources used to draft are exclusively Chinese, some are from Forum where ex-service member visit and occasionally do some leaks and give insights. Meant to say, this is not a product from one afternoon on wikipedia.

I made only few stats recommendations, most of the time it is only the unit name and some reference picture. I did give comments for things I modified, but I did not make a lengthy reasoning why certain units is chosen above others.

The Guideline while making this is:

1) Based on the roster already in game. Units in normal textcolor are from original roster
2) designed to complement NK. One example being China brings tracked MRL and NK brings wheeled MRL
3) Every time frame gets at least one unit. This means in most cases there will be 3 units for any given role.
4) Cutting out OOTF units. Most tabs are now free from 1991+ units, exceptions are INF, TANK which imo is really important and need to have some 90s units, also SUP got new arty pieces.
5) Further streamlining the roster by cutting out redundant equipment and try to emphasis the coalition level balance

Final unit count: 80 units,
1991+ units: 13
Future unicorn: 1

Color code:

Green: Units I added
Yellow: Units which could have stayed, but due to the reason given in comments left
Red: Shouldn't be in game

LOG

Spoiler : :
CV:

BJ212 (1965)
Z-5 (1963)
Zhihuiban (1975)
WZ-701(1980)
- renamed from ZZZ-701, and corrected the date
- http://www.wanhuajing.com/d509137

ZZZ-69-I (1980)
- renamed from ZZZ-59-I, and corrected the date
- http://p1.pstatp.com/large/48400060a11c4ef6be0


Supply:

Mi-6 (1970)
SX250 cargo (1975)
FOB
JN252 cargo (1976)
- Chinese Tatra, carrying a nuke and towing the ICBM
- http://p3.pstatp.com/large/52f00063f1511ce0de5
- http://p3.pstatp.com/large/530000646d6e1926062

Recycle Bin:

BY5020TSL
- 1999, OOTF


INF

Spoiler : :
Specialists:

[Flamer]

Fanghuabing '85 (1984)
- Flamethrower change to FHJ84 napalm rocket (this weapon is intended for fanghuabing)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjPoajCXNXk old footage from some 40 years ago and how their Hazmat suits looks like and a lot of old PLA equipment

[MANPAD]

HN-5A (1980)
HN-5B (1985)
QW-1 (1994)

[FIST]

Tanke Shashou '75 (1978)
Tanke Shashou '95 (1995)
- Uses PF-98 120mm rocket with all purpose round: 14 AP; 3 HE; Napalm effect; 1725m range; 65-70% acc (ballistic computer, laser rangefinder, night vision in one )
- http://www.firearmsworld.net/china/rl/pf98/f-3.jpg


Rifle team:

[militia]

Yebeiyi (1975)

[line]

Zhanshi '75 (1975)
- MG change to type-56-I (RPD); The type-67 is considered heavy MG not a squad light MG
- http://www.sinaimg.cn/jc/2015-10-30/U12 ... 124423.jpg
- http://www.wanhuajing.com/pic/1604/2110 ... 90_383.jpg
- http://i.guancha.cn/News/2014/02/17/635 ... 414139.jpg

Zhanshi '85 (1983)
- MG change into type-81, they are after all already using the AR version and it is the service weapon in 1980s
- http://saa.auto.sohu.com/club-11292/thr ... 01-1.shtml Infantry equipment and uniform for Zhanshi, lieren and lijian


[shock]

Shenjian '75 (1980)
- 10 men re-roled luzhandui; access to all Chinese transport options and mot/mech/airborne/armor specializations
Shenjian '90 (1990)
- 10 men re-roled luzhandui; access to all Chinese transport options and mot/mech/airborne/armor specializations
- http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/UploadF ... 215734.jpg


[elite]

Konjiangbing '75 (1980)
- airborne infantry from 15th Airborne Corps
- loadout: type-81 AR; type-69 RPG (14 AP); type-81 MG
- http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2008-07/2 ... 836211.jpg

Konjiangbing '95 (1995)
- loadout: type-95 carbine; PF-98 AT rocket (25AP; 800m range; 60% acc); type-95 MG
- http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/UploadF ... 350134.jpg
- http://www.firearmsworld.net/china/rl/pf98/xd-2.jpg
- http://www.firearmsworld.net/china/rifl ... bb95-4.jpg


Recycle Bin:

Lijian
- send over to Recon tab, they are recon after all


SUP

Spoiler : :
MRL:

PHZ-70 (1970)
PHZ-83/type-83 (1983)
- 4x273mm rockets; 40km IRL range; 138kg HE warhead; cluster version pens 80-100mm
- http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2009-02/0 ... 766838.jpg

PHZ-89 (1990)
- 40x122mm rockets; computerized FCS, which automatically gets fireing data from command vehicle; Autoloader with 1 full reload on board
- http://military.china.com/zh_cn/bbs2/11 ... 217745.jpg


SAM:

HQ-7 (1985)
KS-1 (1991)
- renamed from HQ-61A; 50km IRL range
- http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/UploadF ... 035734.jpg


SPAAG:

PGZ-80 (1980)
PGZ-88 (1988)
- move to cat.a

SPH:

PLZ-70 (1970)
PLZ-83 (1983)
PLZ-45 (1991)
- first appeared in 1988; digitized/computerized FCS, which automatically gets firing data from command vehicle.
- http://file.xxdao.com/2015/04/02/85e5cd ... 72180d.jpg


Mortar carrier:

YW-304 (1980)
YW-381 (1980)

Recycle Bin:

BM-24
- Not even sure if China had those
PHL-81
- redundant; NK can provide wheeled MLR
PHL-63
- redundant; NK can provide wheeled MLR
PGZ-95
- 1995, OOTF


TANK

Spoiler : :
Light tank:

ZTS-63-I (1975)

Medium tank line 1:

ZTZ-69 (1969)
- renamed from ZTZ-59-I, since the true 59-I is from the 80s

ZTZ-59-II (1984)
ZTZ-59D (1995)
- renamed and reroled from ZTZ-59-IIA;
- http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/pc/2004-05 ... 151706.jpg


Medium tank line 2:

ZTZ-88B (1988)
- renamed from ZTZ-88
- http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg

ZTZ-85-IIAP (1991)
- renamed from ZTZ-85-IIA
- http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... ygfotd.jpg

ZTZ-96 (1995)
- renamed from ZTZ-85-III
- http://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/f ... hjamhk.jpg


Heavy tank line:

WZ123 (1995)
- proto stage of ZTZ-99; 600mm front armor at early stage; flavor option 1) laser dazzler => very small size 2) QW-1 manpad but weaker side armor 3) long rod DU penetrator with high AP.
- http://pic.tiexue.net/img0/19658760.jpg.html


Recycle Bin:

ZTS-63-II
- post 2000, OOTF
ZTZ-85-II
- redundant performance


REC
Spoiler : :
Recon inf:

Lie Ren (1980)
Lijian '75 (1980)
- moved from INF tab
Lijian '90 (1987)
- change RPG to QLZ-87 grenade rifle; should be longer range, high acc but slow firing ingame
- http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/UploadF ... 043675.jpg


Recon chopper:

Mi-1 (1955)
Z-9G HJ-8A (1991)
- moved from HEL; good optics recon with 4xHJ-8A ATGM
- http://www.airforceworld.com/pla/gfx/z9/z9g_2.jpg
- http://www.airforceworld.com/pla/gfx/z9/z9g_hj8_1.jpg


Recon tanks:

ZTQ-62 (1962)
ZTQ-62-I (1980)

Recon vehicle armed:

ZZC-55 (1955)
ZZC-56 (1956)

Recon vehicle unarmed

BJ212 ZC (1965)

Recycle Bin:

ZTQ-62G
- post 2000, OOTF


VEH
Spoiler : :
ATGM:

BJ212 PW-75 (1975)
- renamed from BJ-212 PWL-78; it is a 105mm RR
- http://pic1.hebei.com.cn/0/10/59/68/10596872_929516.jpg

BJ212 HJ-73 (1978)
- date corrected, move to cat.b
- renamed from BRDM-1 HJ-73, since the vehicle is wrong
- http://imgm.ph.126.net/38vUazNTZiSZagEV ... 987599.jpg

ZDF-89 (1989)

AT vehicle/FSV:

PGZ-63 (1963)
IS-2 (1956)
- http://img1.gtimg.com/11/1185/118551/11 ... 1200_0.jpg
BK120K (1985)
- renamed from PTZ-59
PTZ-89 (1989)

Infantry Transports:

[tracked]

ZSD-63A (1968)
ZSD-85 (1985)
- renamed from ZSD-63C
- http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/UploadF ... 744391.jpg

ZSD-90 (1990)
- https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e2hH_zt6dHw/ ... 0215-2.jpg

[wheeled]

WZ521 (1964)
- first indigenous attempt of making a wheeled APC; 30-57mm armor all around
- http://shuoke.autohome.com.cn/article/20909.html

WZ551 (1984)

[helo]

Z-5 (1963)
- Change to 12,7mm MG
Mi-8 HF-7 (1979)
- Renamed from Mi-8T; Change weapon to Chinese 90mm rockets; HF-7 is the name of the launcher
Z-9G (1988)
- renamed from Z-9A which is unarmed

Recycle Bin:

BJ212 HJ-8
- redundant with ZDF-89, and currently using the non service version of HJ-8
WZ550
- 1995 OOTF
SU-100
- redundant with NK SU-100 and the IS-2
ZSL-56
- China didn't operate the 25 or so BTR-152 she got from USSR


HEL

Spoiler : :
SA.342 HOT (1980)
Z-5 HF-7 (1965)
- renamed from Z-5A; using Chinese 90mm rockets

Z-9G TY-90 (1990)
- renamed from Z-9A TY-90
- reduce missile to 4, since the straight pylons can only carry this much

Remove bin:

Z-9A HJ-8
- moved over to REC


AIR

Spoiler : :
ASF:

J-7II (1978)
- more nimble brawler, since it is based on the original MiG-21
- http://www.afwing.com/d/file/aircraft/c ... 839c34.jpg

J-7III (1985)
- renamed and reroled from J-7C; It is a copy of Egyptian MiG-21MF; loses it's bombs and get the ASF loadout of 4xPL-5
- http://www.afwing.com/d/file/aircraft/c ... 0c4d44.jpg

J-8IIB (1988)
Su-27SK (1991)

HE Bomber:

Q-5A (1974)
- the base version with internal weapon bay; this is the nuke carrier, but instead of a hydrogen bomb let it carry a 1000kg bomb
- http://a1.att.hudong.com/68/69/01300000 ... 247008.jpg

JH-7 (1991)
- capable of carrying 2x1500kg bomb. Otherwise 4x1000kg or 24x250kg are also an option for this plane
- http://dingyue.nosdn.127.net/Qu2psPYxra ... ssflag.jpg
- http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/UploadF ... 853969.jpg


Ground attack

[Napalm]

Q-5I (1978)
- re-roled into napalm plane; 8x250kg napalm bombs possible; No SRAAM

[Rocket]

J-5 (1952)
- re-roled into rocket plane

[Cluster]

Q-5II (1985)
- renamed from Q-5IA; 8x250kg cluster is possible; No SRAAM

[AGM/SEAD]

JH-7A Feibao (2004)
- The one and only true future unicorn; 2xSEAD missiles and 2xKD-88 ATGM; KD-88 has 185kg warhead

Recycle Bin:

J-7IIM
- redundant to J-7III
J-8C
- The upgrade program from USA never finished and the real J-8C is from 2000s
J-7H
- The J-7 really should be tasked as ASF
Q-5D
- LT-2 is from 2000s


Comments and feedbacks are welcomed.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby remilia019 » Fri 26 Aug 2016 18:16

With the current Wargame roster, wouldn't call 1995 as OOTF but rather "Prototype" but meh

I think you might've forgotten HQ-17? with that roster, the lack for a mech/armored SAM is still present which really shouldn't
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby 47andrej » Fri 26 Aug 2016 18:26

K1A1, MBT that Southkorea has ingame, has 2001 service date, first protos builded in 1997. Why cant Northkorea have Chonma 98 if the actual IV is from '92 instead of '85?

Solution renaming old Chonma IV to V with some random buffs is, how to say, rather cheap.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 26 Aug 2016 18:27

remilia019 wrote:With the current Wargame roster, wouldn't call 1995 as OOTF but rather "Prototype" but meh

I think you might've forgotten HQ-17? with that roster, the lack for a mech/armored SAM is still present which really shouldn't


TOR-M1 was bought in 1996, so OOTF. :/
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Fri 26 Aug 2016 19:02

[EUG]MadMat wrote:So ... youre telling us that our ChoHo IV is actually a V model ... and that the V do actually hit the timeframe?
I've seen several times a 1992 service date for the V, but found no confirmation elsewhere. Where does that information comes from?

If it proves right, bumping the ChoHo IV as a V (with overall improved stats) is a possibility ...


47andrej wrote:K1A1, MBT that Southkorea has ingame, has 2001 service date, first protos builded in 1997. Why cant Northkorea have Chonma 98 if the actual IV is from '92 instead of '85?

Solution renaming old Chonma IV to V with some random buffs is, how to say, rather cheap.



Actually, I'm saying that the designation system is fundamentaly flawed.

The Chonma Ho III, IV and V are just wrong names of the exact same tank which is the Chonma-92 (I think that the piece we see at the NK museum is a simplified Chonma-92 that removed ERA blocks and front turret smoke dispensers for later tanks like the Songun-915).

The 1992 intro date isn't even the actual introduction date because it's only the year when we first saw this. It is very likely that the Chonma-92 entered actual use earlier and hence it shouldn't get proto tag.


The model that you have ingame is the Chonma-92, and IMO I think that you can buff it with like 55% acc and 35% stabs (or 60/40 if you are generous), 7 rpm of ROF and 13 or 14 of front armor, maybe 8 of side armour and 3 of top armour.

Depending on the chosen accuracy and armor stats, the vehicle could cost between 70 (worse Chieftain Mk.11) or 75/80 pts (pretty equal to Chief Mk.11 with better speed and autonomy and the KPVT, but worse rear armour, and 1pt less of AP and HE).









As for the Chonma 98, I really don't mind about it entering in game or not but it would just add 1 or 2 additionnal armor at the front and IMO adding an extra tank and a new model for a marginally better tank (when China is already doing the job at coalition level) that doesn't have enough ROF to compete with heavies anyway is kind of a waste.

The Chonma series ingame were always designed as hard hitting tanks that are perfect against mediums but however lack the mobility, armor and rate of fire to engage heavier tanks offensively.

I'd rather add more Konkurs options like infantry and UAZ to get a somewhat capable anti-tank net.




@Keldon: what about the MD-500 with HOT-1 and rotor mast? And the PLZ-89?
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 26 Aug 2016 19:43

Bougnas wrote:@Keldon: what about the MD-500 with HOT-1 and rotor mast? And the PLZ-89?


The modified roster is just a barebone 2.0 version. You can add more units to fill out the flavor side. To answer your question about those 2 units:

- There are only 2 MD500 in China and it lost the competition to the Gazelle
- PLZ-89 lost the cat.a howitzer slot to PLZ-45, because the 155mm gun is simply more useful. But like i said, to fill out the flavor side of a roster such units can be added.

Edit: read a bit more about that MD500. Apparatnly the missiles are TOW provided by USA. After the chopper lost to Gazelle the mast mounted sensor pod and TOW were returned to US while the choppers themselves remained in China, cause those were already paid for.

That's a bit like the Blackhawk situation of PLA, technically those choppers could have been added, but due to small IRL numbers i guess they were not.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Fri 26 Aug 2016 20:54

Alright, thanks for the explaination :) .
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Sgt._Pepper » Fri 26 Aug 2016 22:31

1995 on the PGZ-95 and the WZ-550 really isn't OOTF, SK alone has two 1996 units, which also weren't adopted in that year. And there are loads of other 1995 units in the game.

EDIT: Scandinavia has 8 1995 prototypes and 2 from 1996.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 26 Aug 2016 22:47

Sgt._Pepper wrote:1995 on the PGZ-95 and the WZ-550 really isn't OOTF, SK alone has two 1996 units, which also weren't adopted in that year. And there are loads of other 1995 units in the game.

EDIT: Scandinavia has 8 1995 prototypes and 2 from 1996.


I just want to demonstrate, that a non proto infested Chinese roster is possible. I believe with the list i presented you can actually do pretty well ingame, at least better than now, unless of course you get the usual special pricing for being one of the Asian factions. For the full potential you should of course use the coalition deck which also require NK to be streamlined, but i think you get the idea.

Is this my dream roster? No! but it is like i said a barebone version 2.0 and it would work ingame. Just kinda tired when people claiming China/NK need some help from the galactic empire to be viable, where the core problem is the lack of information/bad research when drafting the roster 2 years ago.

Well, just hope that Inf, tank and ASF being salvaged and i'll be pretty happy.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Admiral Piett » Fri 26 Aug 2016 22:49

keldon wrote:Just kinda tired when people claiming China/NK need some help from the galactic empire to be viable, where the core problem is the lack of information/bad research when drafting the roster 2 years ago.


^^^

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