Fine-tuning NK/China

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keldon
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 9 Oct 2016 23:17

Here comes round 4 of balance suggestions for RD coalition.

Preface:
____________________________
According to FLX both Asian factions will get buffed back into the meta in one of the coming patches. Based on that message I will ditch the separated re-roles and incorporate them into tab based segments of what i think the coalition lacks the most.

All suggestions are done with authenticity in mind, given what scarce info available to the public of course. For PLA I have used almost exclusively Chinese language sources. However some things about a secretive military like China/NK need to be understood:

Disclaimer: Every PLA watcher worth their salt should know that information about the military is jealously guarded, all things we read openly in the web are just estimations or in best cases leaks. Some of those data are more logical and well reasoned and some are just daydreams. It is near impossible to verify those info depending on the equipment (for instance tank armor). There is basically 3 ways how we can interpret those data. 1) take it as it is 2) take it as exaggeration 3) take it as understatement. I think the same also applies to NK. For game balance we should apply those 3 ways with reason.

The Goal of this thread can be summarized in the following points, which also serve as the segments divided by their urgency:

1. Top priority minimum changes to bring the faction back into meta
2. Changes to make the roster less redundant, more coherent and more competitive
3. New unit suggestions to close capability gaps or to give the coalition some defined features aka flavor
4. Inconsistencies small and big that should be corrected

Before we start, i'd like to point to froosty's KPA spreadsheet and the corresponding post.

Now, let‘s start!

1. Top priority
_____________________________
About the shortcomings of RD deck you can check this summary by a competitive player, it is a bit old though. Taking authenticity into consideration both nations should have very good selection in infantry, since there is a strong emphasis on ground forces and especially infantry IRL. Accompany them is a tank force that mostly should be relatively thinly armored but have very good firepower. ASF should be thanks to the Soviet Union also offer at least 1 high-end option. The changes suggested in this segment strives to achieve just that.

- Luzhandui 75 and 90 get access to all Chinese transports, get access to armor/mech/moto/airborn specializations, rename to shénjiàn 神剑

Reasoning
Spoiler : :
RD has two marine squads, while it does look like a lot of choices, but most of the time luzhandui is the better buy. Also if you take any specialization those choices are simply gone. Since NK is on a peninsula I think they keeping the marines is more logical.

I digged a bit around about special forces and found the operation profile
http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/tezhong ... 847_2.html

translation pulled from sinodefence forum:

Unlike the U.S. SOF, the PLA focuses the roles of its SOF very much on direct action (DA), special reconnaissance (SR), and counter-terrorism (CT). PLA SOF units are not trained for unconventional warfare (UW) and civil affairs (CA) like their American counterparts. This is because the PLA only intends to use the SOF for a high-intensity, lightening-fast regional conflict that is over in short amount of time. They are not going to be involved in long-duration, low-intensity operations in foreign countries, like what the U.S. SOF did in Southeast Asia in the 1960s/70s.

Direct Action (DA) - The most important mission for PLA SOF, involving short-duration strikes and other small-scale offensive actions by SOF to seize, destroy, capture, recover or inflict damage on designated personnel or material. For example, prior to the outbreak of major hostilities between the PRC and Taiwan, PLA SOF will infiltrate the Taiwan island using powered parachutes, helicopters, or other methods, and launch a pre-empty strike against key enemy personnel and command & control elements, to paralyse the enemy C3I network and leave the enemy troops leaderless. This strategy is sometimes being referred to as “Decapitation Operation”.

Other DA operations may include capturing enemy airfields and seaports for the upcoming airborne and amphibious landing troops; sabotaging enemy equipments and systems; attacking vital civilian infrastructure; ambushing enemy forces; spreading rumours to cause enemy confusion and misjudgement, etc.

Special Reconnaissance (SR) - SR involves reconnaissance and surveillance actions to obtain or verify vital intelligence and information, by using visual and other hi-tech collection methods. This is very much like what SOF units of the Coalitions Forces did during the two Gulf Wars. Small teams consisting 2~4 people will be dispatched to behind enemy lines to collect intelligence concerning the capabilities, intensions, and activities or enemy forces. It may also involve locating and designating targets for precision strikes.

Counter-Terrorism (CT) - PLA SOF units are receiving training in offensive counter-terrorism operations to prevent, deter and respond to terrorism. As a result of the growing separatist activities in China’s remote regions such as Xijiang, PLA SOF have became increasingly involved in the counter-terrorism role. In October 2002, a PLA SOF unit took part in the joint China-Tajikistan counter-terrorism exercise. A recent report by the Chinese state media also confirmed that counter-terrorism had been added to the basic Special Forces training subjects under the renewed PLA doctrines.

Other Roles - In some occasions, PLA SOF are also acting as “Blue Army” (opposing force) in exercise to test the ability of regular army unit against special forces.


Each of the 7 military districts have their own „special forces“ unit, and like the profile says: direct action and recon are primary concern. I would say the recon is more in line with traditional infiltration and demolition task and the direct action guys are more like shock troops.

Instead of rerolling luzhandui into just the airborne unit, a more useful way would to be the direct action „special forces“ attached to the group army. In the case of second Korean war, this would be the 38th group army, the top dog among China's land forces, it consists of 1 mech, 1 armored and 2 motorized infantry divisions and their supporting assets in the 70-90s time frame. The re-roled luzhandui would be an abstraction of shock troops provided by those infantry divisions.

http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class1/ ... 14304.html (history and composition of the 38th group army, will answer questions or provide translations only if asked to)


- Type-81 mg gets 10% more accuracy and burst length improve from 8 to 10


Reasoning
Spoiler : :
Currently the Type-81 is a simple copy of RPK in stats but require less supply (also wrong caliber), which is not a very authentic way to distinguish it from the russian gun. Based on this post better accuracy can be argued for, also the rpm for the mg is generally given at 700 rpm

理论射速:700发/分

theoretical rpm=700


- Su-27SK loadout change to: 4xR-77; 4xR-73; 165 pts; rename to Su-27SMK (1995 prototype)

Reasoning


2. Secondary priority
_____________________
The idea is to streamline most tabs with re-roles and thus eliminating redundancies, of course authenticity is again present in all of those suggestions and will be available to read in-depth under reasoning. For a different idea about RD deck viability visit this post

INF:

RD modern line troops and specialist teams are severly lacking or redundant, thus force players to rely on expensive infantry and further make some specialization decks ineffective.

- Zhanshi '85 gets ZSL-56 as transport
- Zhanshi '85 gets type 81 as machine gun (with CQC and stabilizer)
- Zhanshi '85 gets type-69-III rpg (rename to Zhanshi 90).

- Ban-tank Fagot weapon upgrade to Konkurs (rename to Ban-tank Konkurs)
- Bibanchungpo to RPG-7V FIST and rename to Hwaryok-jiwon-ban
- Fanghuabing to napalm rocket launcher (The Lijian 90 launcher)
- Add 5 points transport for reservists


Reasoning
Spoiler : :
Zhanshi '85 is the worst modern line inf right now. With better mg they should compare more favorably to other 90s line troops. This in turn will up the effectiveness of mech/armor decks. Also the access to ZSL will allow RD an alternative option in motorized decks. Another issue will be the cost of 15 pts right now, either give them a better RPG or it should come down in cost. They should be comparable to Fusilier or Diggers if the 15 pts tag stays.

Konkurs will in turn offer a more effective infantry based defense against tanks. The FIST and Flamer changes are to differentiate them from the clone units with different names and to offer the coalition more options.


NK shock and special forces units are severely lacking, in case of marines they are even redundant to their own special forces due to same loadout.


- Type-73 mg for all shock and elite infantry using ammobelt (20 hits burst), RPD goes to Bochongsu with stab and CQC
- Gonbobyong get SPG-9 grenade with 16 AP for their RR, introdate change to 1980 (optional: re-reole into recon infantry with 16 AP)
- Jeogockdae '90 loadout change: Type-68 AR; Type 68-I (RPG-7V); Type-73; Price to 25 pts (Basically Morskaya clone)
- Yuckjeondae '75 loadout change: Scorpion SMG; Type-68-I (RPG-7V); Type-73
- Yuckjeondae '90 loadout change: AKS-74U; Type-68-III (RPG-7VR); RPK


Reasoning
Spoiler : :
For more info about NK military focus check this report.

Excerpt from the document about the special purpose forces
North Korean SOF fall into many different categories: ranger/commando, light infantry, airborne, sniper/strategic assassination, SEAL, reconnaissance, amphibious assault/naval infantry/marine, agent infiltration and intelligence operative. North Korean SOF are associated with conventional warfare, unrestricted warfare, unconventional warfare, guerrilla warfare, partisan warfare, asymmetric warfare, and insurgency. Page 40

During the early 1990s, the VIII Special Corps was renamed the Light Infantry Training and Guidance Bureau. The special purpose forces continued to expand during this period from 85,000 troops organized into 22 brigades in 1990 to approximately 100,000 troops organized into 25 brigades in 1996. Page 44


Gonbobyong is a very weak unit due to bad mg and RR. Simple solution would be just let them use the same RR grenade imported from Soviet Union like the polish FIST SPG-9. Optionally it can be used as a shock recon squad, which fits the description of their operation profile, and would improve NK decks with a fighting shock recon squad.

Kim Il Sung stated that there would be a unique strategic approach based upon “light infantry units,” which had the capability of conducting “all forms of combat.” This was a pivotal point in the development of the KPA’s special warfare forces. Prior to this, guerrilla warfare was the primary mission which received the bulk of support and funding. Now these units would
be responsible for a broader, more balanced range of unconventional and special warfare operations.
Prolonged political subversion and intelligence collection became the primary mission. Page 43


For an more extensive explaination of the NK small arms situation visit this post. For reason why type-73/RPD is switched around and RPG changes visit this post.

Jeogockdae is generally inferior to the special forces with the same loadout. To increase their cost effectiveness and to differentiate these 2 units, downgrade the RPG to justifiying 25 pts.

Yuckjeondae would be a good allrounder special forces with RPK mg imported from the Soviet Union.


TANK:

RD tanks suffer from a overpopulated low end, mediocre mid end and a scarce high end

For more info check this extensive post about tank development history in the PLA.


- 125mm gun armed ZTZ to 8 rpm (ZTZ-85IIA and 85III)
- Up-Value ZTZ-85-IIA (65% acc, 50% stab; 21 AP; 16 FAV, 3 TAV, 3 RAV; 115 pts), rename to ZTZ-85-IIM
- Up-Value ZTZ-85-II (65% acc, 50% stab; 14 FAV; 75 pts)
- All kpvt armed tanks get 5 points price cut, except Ch'onma-Ho 5 (Ch'onma 1 and 2, both type 59)
- ZTZ-59-IIA gun range to 2275m; accuracy to 65%, 50% stab; offroad speed to 55 km/h (due to new engine); price to 55 pts
- 2 cards of ZTZ-85III


Reasoning
Spoiler : :
The kpvt is inflating the price of NKs low end tanks, type 59 can't compare favorably to the Chinese ZTZ-59 and early Ch'onma suffer from 6 rpm, low armor and high price. 5 points less and they become much more attractive.

RD high end tanks are currently solely kept afloat by the T-90. With a second card of 85III we can field somehow similar numbers of heavy tanks like most other coalitions.

In a tank heavy meta a higher RPM doesn't just adress authenticity issue (all openly available Chinese sources cite the rpm of 125mm ZTZ as 8). It will help 85III to be able to keep up with damage output of similar priced class peers.

http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 01304.html

该系统有故障自检功能,并能自动选择弹种,完成输弹、装弹、发射等一系列动作,战斗射速可达8发/分。

combat RPM reaches 8.


The ZTZ-85-IIA is in reality the ZTZ-85-IIAP sold to Pakistan, it's domestic usage name would be ZTZ-85-IIM. For more info check this extensive post about ZTZ-85 line of tanks. Generally the armor for the M version which is the same as for early ZTZ-96, which is estimated to be around 550mm-650mm. For ingame purpose and the model without ERA it can come down to fill the gap of tank tab.

The same should arguably also be done to the 85-II as to bring more units into the mid-end of the spectrum, the FCS is the same after all and composite armor is the same as the standard export model ZTZ-85IIA.

Increased gun range on ZTZ-59-IIA would offer RD a viable option like the polish Merida, it has the same western derived FCS used on ZTZ-85 series.

These changes is supposed to generally distribute units more evenly among price brackets


SUP:

RD artillery selection is cluttered by redundant and low end options

- increase rate of fire of small caliber and open topped artillery. (PLZ-70, Tokchon 122 and 130)
- Koksan price cut to 90 pts.


Reasoning
Spoiler : :
RD doesn't posses any fast reacting nor 10 HE arty. The usage of RD howitzers is like saturation or suppression fire. Currently the cheap 50 points NK arty fills this role better than the more expensive Tokchons. To make those 6 HE guns more appealing I suggest increase their rpm up to between 120mm mortar and the usual 10 salvo 30 sec aim time arty pieces. This would make them excellent saturation guns.


VEH:

RD still have bad fire support vehicles

- SU-100 to 9 rpm and 35% acc

Reasoning
Spoiler : :
compared to what some other coalition can bring in as fire support a simple price cut won't make the humble SU-100 good. With increased rpm and 5% more accuracy it would be quite good at 15 points.


HEL:

RD recon helo are all unarmed and slow, while the Z-9 all have the mid 2000 recon Z-9WA model

- Z-9 HJ-8 to good optics recon (price to 60 points) or add the autocannon Z-9A as good optics recon (40 pts)

Reasoning
Spoiler : :
RD doesn't have a fast recon chopper, which in turn is kinda limiting the usefulness of TY-90 since it needs a recon to be really useful. The ATGM Z-9 could fulfill this role very well if turned into a good optics recon. Same speed and provide anti ground capability. Tbh it is kinda useless in helo tab, too expensive for just those 4 missiles and historically it can be made like a prototype to the 1996s Z-9W recon chopper, which would be a very good if not exceptional recon.

A short post about the chopper with it's appearance differences.


AIR:

RD lacks a cost effective or high end ASF like other coalition, since the LGB change it also lost one of it's good AT plane. Not to mention the air force is full of redundancies.


- JH-7 load-out change to 24x250kg cluster bombs (type-250-2, 6AP), price to 145 pts
- NK MiG-29 gets authentic MRAAM missle loadout (2 x R-27R and 4 x R-60M)
- Q-5IA load-out increased to 8 bombs and change to napalm
- A-5I load-out change to 4x500kg HE bombs, price to 70 pts.


Reasoning
Spoiler : :
MiG-29 will need its authentic MRAAM load-out to be cost effective, right now it is just a over expensive helo hunter.

With only 4 small bombs the Q-5I/A-5 is a rather bad bomber, it can have a max load of weapons up to 2000kg, this would mean 8 x 250kg bombs, distributed to 4 on fuselage and 2 under each wing.

For A-5 it can get 500kg HE bombs to help NK to et a cheap bomber alternative to B-5.

source: http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Class38 ... 006_2.html

强-5基本型经试飞后,正式装备部队,表现良好。强-5机内携带1000千克武器载荷而不带外挂时,能勉强作超音速飞行。

1977年4月加大航程的改型机的方案开始实施。方案包括7项重大改进项目,如将炸弹舱改为油箱舱,加大主油箱,并增设一个软油箱;改用加力推力为36.8千牛的涡喷-6甲Ⅲ型发动机等,命名为强-5I


After the basic Q-5 passed the testing and equipped the troops, it performed well. With an internal load of 1000kg and no additional external load it can barely fly supersonic.

After 1977 April the flight range expansion program started. Including 7 big improvements, like turning internal weapon bay into fuel tank, bigger main tank and a soft tank. Changed into the more powerful 36,8 kn WP-6AIII engine etc. Name was changed into Q-5I.


For a more illustrative image just start the China campaign in game. In intro you will see a Q-5 with 4 center line bombs and under wing rocket pods and fuel tank. As fly front line duty it can pass on the external fuel and fill both under wing pylons with weapons.

JH-7 is indeed the most advanced aircraft the coalition currently can field in game. It is intended for being a strike aircraft, since the coalition has lost a reliable AT plane, the JH-7 can change it with a high amount of cluster munitions. Possible loadout can be seen here


3. New units/weapons
____________________________
Some capabilities can not be met with current units in the roster without buffing them to unrealistic levels. Since the emphasis is put on infantry, I think some new infantry weapons can be a pretty big boon for the coalition, not to mention easy to model. However there are also some vehicles which worth consideration.

- PF-98 AT rocket
Spoiler : :
Infantry should be the flavor of RD, currently there is no remarkable weapon in PLA/KPA. The PF-98 however would provide high AP for the coalition since it is 800mm of penetration. Recommendation is equip it on 2 units. One is Lijian 90 and the other be Tankeshashou 85. Both would need to have the 1995 tag though. The FIST version is especially deadly with 26 AP on 1400m with 3 HE and napalm effect at 70% acc (since ballistic computer and good sight). Normal infantry version would only have 875m range.


- PHZ-89 / PLZ-45 / PLZ-89 / WS-1
Spoiler : :
4 options for a 10 sec fast aiming arty piece. 2 MLRS and 2 tube arty. Pick 1 of them.
Features:
PHZ-89 (1989): Autoloaded GRAD with 1 full reload on board
WS-1 (1990): 302mm high HE 4 shots sniper
PLZ-45 (1988): average high-end tube arty
PLZ-89 (1989): 122mm amphibious arty.


- QLZ-87 grenade rifle
Spoiler : :
this would be the „sniper rifle“ of China and should be given to Lie Ren. Give it 770m range and replace the MG, also upgrade the RPG to type-69-I since the grenade rifle already makes it CAT A. On a coalition basis this should not being a big issue especially if we can get Gonbobyong reroled into recon. Oh and the new Lie Ren should prolly be made special forces to reflect the infiltrator and demolition role it got.


- Type-84 370mm RR tank
Spoiler : :
Everybody hates AVRE and CEV... so... how about a 370mm one as FSV?


- HQ-17 (TOR-M1)
Spoiler : :
Please save the Mech/Armor AA situation with this unit.


4. Inconsistencies
_____________________________
- Type-73 mg doesn't have a shock training version
- Chonma 5 should have a 115mm gun instead of a 125mm one, and it should lose autoloader and 1 HE
- ZSD-90 should be 20 pts after the massive armor buff
- Su-25K gets 2 rear armor like Su-25Tdue to its introdate
- NK MiG21 ATGM plane availability doesn't make sense regarding the pricing and capability of the aircraft
- F-7b availability is 5/4/0/3/0 not 6/5/4/0/3 like china's mig.
- Mig-23ml is 95 pts when the same plane for East Germany is 85.
- PGZ-63 lacks anti-aircraft range like other similar vehicles.
- NK shilkas 40 speed when the Russian Afganski with added weight is 50
- NK Su-7BMK cost the same despite being worse than Soviet MiG-21Bis
- PGZ-95 has very slow rate of fire for its QW-2 manpad (6 seconds between shot), unlike every other gun/manpad combo. This is still not fixed, despite what the patchlog say
- BJ-212 PWL-78 has the wrong weapon, the model is type-75 105mm RR
- J-7C should get 20% ecm like the MiG-21MF it is based one and J-7H should be reroled into J-7D as the direct successor with 30% ecm. For more details visit viewtopic.php?p=970200#p970200
- All J-7 variants, except the J-7C, have the wrong gun. It should be type-30-I 30mm cannon.
- Several naming issues with NK infantry units, for a detailed list check this
- NK Jeonchaldae (sniper team) should have 95% acc on their sniper rifle
- PL-11 should get 60% accuracy like the ground based HQ-61

Afterwords
__________________________
As 1/3 of RedFor and a 2 country coalition I believe the options should be as viable as possible.

I thank all people who participated in this thread and contributed to this list. Lets hope eugen can make some if not all of these changes happen to RD so we can say Red Dragon is finally great!
Last edited by keldon on Wed 7 Dec 2016 21:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Razzmann » Sun 9 Oct 2016 23:27

Me like it!
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Xeno426 » Sun 9 Oct 2016 23:31

I want more changes to the air tab, but that's just me. :P
A few aircraft could have a bump in their ECM, though.
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CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sun 9 Oct 2016 23:32

Xeno426 wrote:I want more changes to the air tab, but that's just me. :P
A few aircraft could have a bump in their ECM, though.


It's under inconsistency. Rather which other planes did i forget?
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Xeno426 » Sun 9 Oct 2016 23:58

keldon wrote:
Xeno426 wrote:I want more changes to the air tab, but that's just me. :P
A few aircraft could have a bump in their ECM, though.


It's under inconsistency. Rather which other planes did i forget?

Well, you could note that EVERY SINGLE J-7 is using the wrong gun. Except the J-7C/D.
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CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Demonicjapsel » Mon 10 Oct 2016 00:00

I wholly approve of this.. I do indeed hope FLX and Madmat take note of this. once again, excellent job Keldon and Razz

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That leaves one thing though, shouldn't we reconsider re rolling one of the A/Q-5 clusterbombers into a cheap iron bomber?
Last edited by Demonicjapsel on Mon 10 Oct 2016 00:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Mon 10 Oct 2016 00:06

Xeno426 wrote:I want more changes to the air tab, but that's just me. :P
A few aircraft could have a bump in their ECM, though.


To be honest, you'd probably be more qualified to do that that all the rest of us, most of us would be happy for one or two change outs so the air tab will be viable, you on the other hand know pretty much all of the intricacies of both factions history and loadout.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Razzmann » Mon 10 Oct 2016 00:09

Demonicjapsel wrote:I wholly approve of this.. I do indeed hope FLX and Madmat take note of this. once again, excellent job Keldon

What about me, I proofread it :(

:lol:

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Demonicjapsel » Mon 10 Oct 2016 00:11

Razzmann wrote:
Demonicjapsel wrote:I wholly approve of this.. I do indeed hope FLX and Madmat take note of this. once again, excellent job Keldon

What about me, I proofread it :(

:lol:


there you go, all fixed now :lol: XD

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby codextero » Mon 10 Oct 2016 01:03

I support all of it except the Jeogockdae sniper rifles, it's a nerf to them since 15 man squads want to be in the thick of the fighting, and sniper rifles suck in those situations. I would prefer the RPD recieve a slight buff and they stay as is. Something else can be done to Yuckjeondae to make them different. Also, no model changes on infantry.

Two things I would like to see

- HQ-6 and Pongae 2 in Mech/Armored. China and NK both do not have any tracked AA with more range than a SPAAG, which causes those deck specs to get brutalized by air. HQ-7 would be nice as well but that's a stretch.

- something re-roled into a good optics fighting recon

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