Fine-tuning NK/China

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keldon
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Thu 17 Nov 2016 17:39

HrcAk47 wrote:Why are you so pessimistic, Keldon? I mean, it is your right to not want to do it personally, but shitting up youzhe's enthusiasm?

Look at it objectively. MadMat did a pretty good job for a foreigner with no knowledge of Chinese, researching for Red Dragons. It's not just "unit A exists". You need dimensions, technical data on all systems, day of prototyping, day of introduction. You need tons of images and blueprints for art team. And yet, they have around a hundred units each! It's easy to make jokes on how badly they did. Why not help them fix it properly?

What I'm certain Eugen appreciates is a concise proposal of "this is how it's supposed to look like". And then, they can decide on taking steps to fix it. Do you think they enjoy having 1/3 of REDFOR (and not just any nations, but the TITULAR ONES) unplayable? Or is it a French conspiracy against China and NK? :lol:


I'm primarily being realistic of whats possible at this stage of game. Also, yes, i'm pessimistic about the prospect of a large overhaul of the RD faction, simply based on the fact that the drafting phase for that faction is over, more than 2 years ago actually. Youzhe obviously has the intention to propose his extensive list to convince devs to make changes happen, and i'm advising him to not have too high of a expectations, since the more you expect the bigger the disappointment.

Look, i know you are happy about how Yugo turned out and i am also very happy for you. However the situation of Yug/Fin is an entirely different one compared to RD, just because they are not in the game yet and the drafting phase is happening now. You ask why i am pessimistic? After more than 2 years of asking for tweaking/buffing/overhauling and the marshal for China ragequitting, i believe an overwhelming majority of old players would be a little dampened in their enthusiasm. I personally replaced it with a realistic view of what still can happen, since till eugen stops the support for the game, the buffing/patching phase is open.

While i do respect the devs for attempt the difficult task of modelling China/NK, the results are... sub-optimal. Like i said in the past, i don't know H-J personally nor do i know how extensive he provided eugen with reference materials on the marshal forum, but there are still very simple things that are wrong. Let's just leave it at that.

Lastly i'd like to emphasize that i'm not intentionally "shitting" on people, but rather being realistic and honest about the prospects. Contrary to Yugo/Fin, eugen won't start making new pretty models for RD simply because somebody flood them with reference material (which people did provide including me). For it to happen a new drafting phase for RD is needed, whether it is in form of a dlc/dedicated patch/wargame 4 is not the issue here. So, i don't believe devs enjoy 1/3 of RedFor being crippled, but i do believe the priority of RD faction is really low for them.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby youzhe » Fri 18 Nov 2016 03:41

This work is not easy, because my English is very poor. :(
My thoughts have a little difference with Keldon,this is my idea:

1、Beyond the age limit.So I'm sorry, JH7A.PF-98?Don't even think about it.WZ550 is a problem,but I decided to keep it.One or two units(Such like 63A) play a key role in the game can still be retained, but can not have a new member to join ;) Most of the new units are in limited times(1996).
2、Weapons designed specifically for export.I will replace them with experimental weapons, which are abandoned for various reasons, but they do exist, although there may not be enough picture material.Yeah,ZTZ-85 line need to have a surgery.
3、I want to complete China as the main goal,I do not consider more feasibility issues, I have tried to simplify my program.And to cooperate with our allies as much as possible on the basis of the "Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty"...Uh, I mean to complement RD's cards.

Color code:
Green: New units
Yellow: Need a little balance
Red: Shouldn't be in game

LOG
Spoiler : :
CV:
BJ212
Z-5 (CV)
Zhihuiban+Mi-8/Mi-17/SX250/ZSL-64/WZ523/ZSD-63
WZ-701(ZZZ-701)
- renamed from ZZZ-701
ZZZ-59-1
-Reduce costs to 120,AP increased to 11
ZZZ-59-IIA(1988)
-based on 59-IIA,add two VRC-8000 radio,cut three shells.
BY5020TSL
-PLA use similar vehicles, but not this.

Supply:
Mi-6
SX250
JN252(1976)
-PLA's main heavy truck
Image
Image


INF
Spoiler : :
MANPAD:
HN-5A
HN-5B
QW-1

Flamer:
Fanghuabing
Fanghuabing 85(QBZ81/FHJ-84)

ATGM:
HJ-73A(1978)/C(1993)
-I don't mind model.

FIST:
Tanke Shashou
-AP increased to 13
Fan Tanke Ban(反坦克班/Anti-tank group)(QBZ-81/type 69-1)
-replace Tanke Shashou 85,because PW80 not be put into use.
During the Cold War,the PLA's infantry classes in the South is not equipped with RPG,they will put the RPG together to form an anti-tank group.

Militia:
Yubeiyi(QBZ-56/type 69/Type 67-1)
-10pts,strength 10

Shock:
Zhanshi/Zhanshi 85(QBZ-56/type 69/type 56LMG)/(QBZ-81/type 69-I/type 81LMG)
-type 56(RPD) and type 81 is PLA infantry classes' main LMG.
Image

Luzhandui/Luzhandui 90(QBZ-56-1/type 69/type 80)/(QBZ-81/PF-89/type 81)
-strength 15

Light infantry:
Kongjiangbing(空降兵/paratrooper,1985) (QBZ-87/PF-89/type 87 LMG)
-Airborne 15th Army is China's rapid reaction force.The airborne troops were reorganized in 1975 and 1985.strength 15
Image
-QBZ-87 is a small-caliber assault rifle,and on this basis the development of light machine guns.
Image
Image
Image

EIite:
Lijian(1988) (type 85/FHJ-84/type 81)
-Only have Lijian 90.Because China's special forces began to form in 1988.
Image
Image


SUP
Spoiler : :
MRL:
PHZ-70
PHZ-83/WM-40
PHZ-89

PHL-63
PHL-81
BM-24
-China don't have BM-24.

SAM:
HN-5C
-We have seen in the BETA.
Image

HQ-7
HQ-61A

SAM-6/SF-2(1975)
-In the 1970s, the Soviet Union exported to China few SAM6,the imitation called SF-2.
Image
Image
HQ-61(crawler type)
-A prototype developed in the early 1980s.
Image

SPAAG:
EQ240 PG87
Image
ZSD63 PG87 (25mm PG-87/HN-5)
Image
Image
PGZ-80
PGZ-88
PGZ-95

SPH:
PLZ-70
PLZ-89

PLZ-83
PLZ-88/45
-Few serves in 38th army

Mortar:
YW304
YW381


TANK
Spoiler : :
LT:
ZTS-63
ZTS-63A

59 line:
59-I
-AP increased to 11
59-II
59-IIA
59D(1994)
Image

88 line
88
88B
-The model is the same as ZTZ-88,the data is the same as ZTZ-85II
88A
-The model is the same as ZTZ-88,the data is the same as ZTZ-85IIA
88C/96
-The model is the same as ZTZ-85III.Front 20 / Side 8 / Rear 2 / Top 2


REC:
Spoiler : :
Recon inf:
Lie Ren(1979)(type 64/type 69/QBU-79)+SX250/ZZC-55/WZ551/Z-9/ZSD-63
Wa Ren(Frogman,PLAN's amphibious scouts ,1980s)(QBZ-56C/type 69-1/type 81)
-strength 10
Image

Recon Helicopter:
Alouette III(1960s)
-Replace Mi-1
Image
Z-9Artillery helicopter(1991)
Image

Recon tank:
ZTQ-62
ZTQ-62-1

ZTQ-62G
-Only 3,after 2000.

Recon vehicle:
ZZC-55(BTR-40)
ZZC-56
-ZZC-56 is BTR-152.

BJ-212ZC
ZZC-85(1985)
-BY5020TSL beyond the age limit,but this unit meet the requirements.
Image
LYT2021(1995)
-First prototype build in 1995.
Image
ZZC-93(1993)
Image
-A radar reconnaissance vehicle,no waeapon.


VEH:
Spoiler : :
BJ212 PWL75
BJ212 HJ-73
-Replace BRDM-1 HJ-73,this weapon is only see in the museum.
BJ212 HJ-8

WZ550
ZDF-89

AT vehicle:
SU-100
PTL-87(1987)
-Replace PTZ-59,59-120 not used.
PTZ-89
OT-59
Image

Infantry Transports:
ZSD-63A(1968)
ZSD-63C(1982)
ZBD-86
ZSD-90

SX250
ZSL-64
-Replace ZSL-56.
- http://shuoke.autohome.com.cn/article/20909.html
WZ523(M1984)
-First disclosed in 1984.Not prototype.
Image
WZ551A(1986)


HEL:
Spoiler : :
Z-5W (57mm rocket/12.7mm mg)
SA.342
Z-9W HJ-8
Z-9W TY-90

Z-9G(23mm gun/90mm rocket)

Z-5
Z-9A
-Don't have 23mm gun, only have one 7.62mm MG.
Image
Mi-8
Mi-17(1991)
Z-8(1989)
-For airborne and Marine Corps.


AIR:
Spoiler : :
J-7II (PL-2B/57mm 57-2)
J-7H(PL-8/500kg bomb)
J-7IIM(PL-8/incendiary bomb)
J-7E(1992)(PL-8/250*4)
http://www.afwing.com/images/j7/10.jpg
J-7C
-Too few,the Chinese Air Force does not like this plane.

J-8I(1980)(PL-5*4)
http://www.afwing.com/d/file/aircraft/c ... 8c36de.jpg
J-8B
J-8C
Su-27SK

Q-5I
Q-5IA
Q-5II(C)
-Replace Q-5D(1995),Q-5II can use LT-1 laser-guided bomb(1985).
JH-7(PL-8/500kg bomb)
-YJ-7 too weak.

SEAD:
HD-5
-Replace JH-7A(After 2000).HD-5 can use YJ-5,An ARM based on HQ-61.Tested in 1984.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ-61#HQ- ... .28YJ-5.29


Grammatical mistakes will be a lot, so I have to simply say :(
Last edited by youzhe on Fri 25 Nov 2016 11:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 18 Nov 2016 17:57

I looked into FL-7, can't find any sources on big military forum about it. The best i can find is this:

http://www.armystar.com/wqzb/2012-10-12_4603.html

planned for 1985, but due to funding and poor industrial capacity it failed.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby HrcAk47 » Fri 18 Nov 2016 18:00

HJ-73 is unfortunately one of the impossible models to make in the engine, like Malyutkas, SS.11s, Kobras or Vigilants. :(
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 18 Nov 2016 18:05

HrcAk47 wrote:HJ-73 is unfortunately one of the impossible models to make in the engine, like Malyutkas, SS.11s, Kobras or Vigilants. :(


I would say the main issue of HJ-73 is they are quite bad. I somehow accepted poor infantry based ATGM as one of the many "achilles heels". I mean, HJ-8A is there at 1991 and 10 kg lighter than the Chu-MAT.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Sgt._Pepper » Fri 18 Nov 2016 21:32

There's also the North Korean Konkurs, which is even in game, but only on the M1992 and not for infantry.

The M1992 would be an interesting high-end exception recon transport.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Fri 18 Nov 2016 23:46

Found something about NK small arms when browsing, i believe part of the stuff below have been posted before.

original link in Chinese (there are pictures inside, so you can still look at them):
http://war.163.com/13/0409/15/8S1EIM4B00014J0G.html

summary:

A short list of NK small arms and their preferances.

semi/automatic/assault rifles:

Type-58 (AK-47) - All in reserve units now
Type-63 (SKS) - very small production, all in reserve units now
Type-68 (AKM) - former main stay assault rifle, slowly shifting out to reserve units
Type-98 (AK-74) - current mainstay of KPA, version with helical magazine has been spotted on elite guards post 2000.

machine guns:

DPM - used in Korean war
Type-62 (RPD) - first large scale domestic produced MG, all in reserve units now
Type-64 (RP46) - belt fed DP with 250 rounds, all in reserve units now
Type-73 (Vz52) - belt or clip, both possible. Current main stay multi purpose light machine gun
Type-82 (PKM) - small scale production rarly seen, however it is currently in service

submachine guns:

Type-49 (PPSh) - huge amounts produced, all in reserve now
Vz61 scorpion - huge amounts bought from the Czechs, still in use for special forces nowadays

sniper rifles:

SVD - bought from Soviet Union
M76 lookalike - Czech insists on not providing NK with this rifle, using 7,92mm Mauser round

grenade launchers:

GP-25 - underbarrel launcher, bought from Soviet Union, in service
AGS-17 - bought from Soviet Union, in service (could be a FIST, don't you think?)

RPG:

RPG-2 - all in reserve units now
Type-68 (RPG-7) - The immortal launcher, not many details on the grenades, however HE rounds available

Small pieces of information:

- Kim Jun-Ill loves Czech small arms, thus quite some designs were influenced, based on Czech designs or outright bought from them
- Due to the geography and the small build of North Koreans, a clip is prefered to cubersome belt for MG
- NK posses the capability to produce RPK/RPK-74, however they are not seen and even if they are spotted, it could still be an import
- NK loves 7,62x54mm ammo for their MG, since they prefer a mid to longrange battle and hold an advantage over SK/US due to more powerful ammo.


A small note at the end, i think NK should have used Soviet grenades for their RPG-7 instead sporting Chinese ones, especially when NK is in a coalition with USSR. I also think NK should get 55 supression on all their MGs when eugen decide to change the weapon labels. 7,62x54mm is larger than the NATO round.

Also, fyjs is online again, there is a display of Type-69, PF-89, PF-98 with their ammo.

http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1845181-1-1.html

the multipurpose rocket for PF-98 is labeld HEAT/thermobaric.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby HrcAk47 » Sat 19 Nov 2016 00:06

Good post. It's missing the first attempt at AK-74 - the Type 88 (with variants 88-1 side folding stock and 88-2, top folding stock).

I strongly propose "upgunning" the North Korea with Soviet, rather than Chinese anti-tank weaponry.

Also, ATGMs are named "Bulsae". All of these missiles are from the same family, and can use the same launcher for all missiles. Therefore, the naming makes sense.

Ban-tank Bulsae - Fagot
Ban-tank Bulsae-2 - Faktoriya (Fagot M)
Ban-tank Bulsae-3 - Konkurs
Ban-tank Bulsae-4 - Konkurs-M (let's be honest, nobody but Soviets actually deserves Konk-M yet everybody has it. They could get it too.)
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Razzmann » Sat 19 Nov 2016 00:08

With "everybody" you mean the Czechs? :lol:

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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby HrcAk47 » Sat 19 Nov 2016 00:22

Razzmann wrote:With "everybody" you mean the Czechs? :lol:


I was under the impression more people had it. Damn it, Redfor is tiny. :lol:

Fortunately, that's gonna change soon.


Anyway, I honestly do believe they deserve it the most, plus it is compatible with their launchers, so logistics burden is minimal. An ideal upgrade.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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