Fine-tuning NK/China

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another505
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby another505 » Sat 26 Nov 2016 02:52

Broth3r wrote:15 point Shock for NSWP have been in the game since ALB... and Yugo's are no better than those, frankly.

Anyway, here's something a bit disheartening:

https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/statu ... 5065523200

Ouch!

Hurts my heart and head
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Bougnas
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Sat 26 Nov 2016 09:56

Do you have a list of ITF in service variants of the J-7, J-8 and Q-5 with the improvements in each version (regarding ECM, armement and manoeuvrability)?

They have a shitloads of variants, and I don't really trust Wikipedia.

Oh, and I'd like to get date on the JH-7 as well.
Also, would the PF-70 rpg be useful ingame?
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sat 26 Nov 2016 19:22

Bougnas wrote:Do you have a list of ITF in service variants of the J-7, J-8 and Q-5 with the improvements in each version (regarding ECM, armement and manoeuvrability)?

They have a shitloads of variants, and I don't really trust Wikipedia.

Oh, and I'd like to get date on the JH-7 as well.
Also, would the PF-70 rpg be useful ingame?


For J-7 look at the family tree: http://www.afwing.com/intro/j-7/legend/J-7_version.jpg.

Generally The most important versions are J-7II, J-7III and J-7E which spawned the most subvariants. The differences between subvariants are mostely small, bigger changes are listed below.

Spoiler : :
- The overall improvement from J-7I to J-7II was in easier maintanance and better usability.
- The later standard J-7IIM was improved in avionics and weapon system.
- The J-7E started to introduce flight performance and manuverability improvments.
- The ecm and countermeasure system are largly skimmed over in many articles, but it is reasonable to assume that variants and planes built after 1984 received at least RWR and flarelauncher.
- J-7III is for certain to have RWR and flare, because the direct parent is MiG-21MF.


For J-8 the amount of variants are far less and morte simple.

Spoiler : :
- The original J-8 with nose inlet is 1979 is a pure highaltitude interceptor with 4 pylons for SRAAM, ecm include a narrow cone rear facing RWR.
- J-8I is from 1985 and only small upgrade in avionics, electronics and a different gun. It is however capable of all-weather missions. Simple jamming capability introduced together with a new radar.
- J-8II is from 1988, ditched the nose inlet to accomodate a bigger radar, external loadout increased to 7 pylons, typical AA loadout is 2 to 4 SRAAM, typical ground attack loadout is 2 rocketpods and 4 to 10 bombs, RWR changed into digital all direction version with flare launcher located besides the belly fin, active jamming ability also improved with an new internal jammer.
- The current ingame J-8C is the upgrade program done by US, which obviousely didn't happen IRL.
- The MRAAM capability was achieved in 1995 with J-8B, ecm as mentioned above, MRAAM is however still the imported Italian Aspide.
- J-8IIM in 1996 achieved almost all specification required from the plane since 1980, with Russian imported equipment like Radar, avionic, ecm etc. including weapons like R-77.
- The current ingame model with the refueling probe is the J-8D from 1996, RWR, jammer and flare launcher included.


Q-5 is kinda similar to J-7 with small changes between most variants. A simplified family tree can be seen here http://www.airforceworld.com/pla/gfx/q5/q5_family.jpg (The intro dates are not correct), a better list can be seen here http://i.imgur.com/FmZh4W5.jpg

Spoiler : :
- Original version with internal bomb bay went into production in 1968, no ecm whatsoever, however the low altitude performance is quite good, which should reflect in a better turn radius.
- True base version of Q-5 is however a 1979 plane with slight modifications like a changed guns to 23mm and into the wing stub, 6 external pylons and 2 internal.
- Q-5I is from 1983, internal weapon bay abandoned for more fuel, engine got upgraded.
- Q-5IA got a RWR
- Q-5II is from 1985+, all-direction RWR, 2 more pylons under wing, 10 external pylons, 2000 kg max load.
- Q-5III/A-5C is a export variant from 1983/1985 comparable to Q-5II
- Q-5M/A-5M is from 1986, in cooperation with Italy, which includes mostly avionics improvments, more powerful domestic engine also included, still good low altitude performance, pylons increased to 12, 8 under wings and 4 fuselage, maxload roughly doubled to 3000kg, no info on ecm.
- Q-5K is version from 1991 with french cooperation based on Q-5II, new navigation and laser range finder.
- Q-5D is from 1995+, new avionics, radar, internal jammer and precision weapon capable due to all new electronics and targeting pods, however OOTF.


JH-7 conducted first flight in 1988 and went into service in 1994, due to engine issues the introduction was delayed by a lot, ecm include RWR, flare, active and passive jammer. Flight performance comparable to Tornado IDS. Precision weapon capable including Russian anti ground munitions.

type-70 RPG is LAW level of bad, better not waste your time with it.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Xeno426 » Sat 26 Nov 2016 19:31

keldon wrote:- J-7III is for certain to have RWR and flare, because the direct parent is MiG-21MF.

MiG-21MF didn't have a flare or chaff launcher; it was a scabbed-on capability to some MiG-21bis aircraft in place of the JATO system (and fired using the same button that fired JATO).
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Sat 26 Nov 2016 19:32

Thank you. Were the Q-5M and K used by the PLAAF itself? Moreover, what kind of A2G ordinance could be used ITF?

Afaik, there are the Type 250 series of bombs (1 is napalm, 2 is HE, 3 is a reverse engineered BL-755), at least one type of 500kg HE bomb, and finally the Type 1000-3 1000kg bomb, as well as various rocket pods equipped with 57 (Type 57-2), 90 or 130mm rockets.

There were also some proto SEAD missiles developped, but what about the AT missiles?
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sat 26 Nov 2016 19:55

Xeno426 wrote:
keldon wrote:- J-7III is for certain to have RWR and flare, because the direct parent is MiG-21MF.

MiG-21MF didn't have a flare or chaff launcher; it was a scabbed-on capability to some MiG-21bis aircraft in place of the JATO system (and fired using the same button that fired JATO).


Well, the J-7III/C had them and that's what matters.

Bougnas wrote:Thank you. Were the Q-5M and K used by the PLAAF itself? Moreover, what kind of A2G ordinance could be used ITF?

Afaik, there are the Type 250 series of bombs (1 is napalm, 2 is HE, 3 is a reverse engineered BL-755), at least one type of 500kg HE bomb, and finally the Type 1000-3 1000kg bomb, as well as various rocket pods equipped with 57 (Type 57-2), 90 or 130mm rockets.

There were also some proto SEAD missiles developped, but what about the AT missiles?


Q-5M/K never got adopted, only part of the results were adopted in later Q-5D, since most of the systems are import.

The usual munition for ground missions include:

Type-250/500/1000 bombs. The number indicates the weight and the single digit number after it indicates high or low drag version, generally 1 and 2 are high drag, 3 and 4 are low drag.

Type-1500/3000 is strictly high drag and primarily intended for use in medium bombers, while the JH-7 can technically be loaded with 4x1500kg version, it is never publically seen. The Q-5 is limited for 1000kg, which is already pushing the airframe, the pylon for the heavy bomb is second inner most wing one.

Cluster and incindiary are not labled extra, they follow the same type-250 etc naming system, however AFAIK they stop both at 250kg. There is however fuel air explosive in a 3000kg cluster version (1992+), the single digit number here indicates a different version of bomb and not high or low drag.

rocket pods are indeed loaded with 57mm, 90mm and 130mm rockets, their naming scheme follow the HF(火发) and a number, depending on the canister.

SEAD would be the YJ-5 which unfortunately faded intobackground thanks to Kh-31. unfortunately PLAAF only got into small ATGM in recent years, in the game time frame they only had cruise missiles. The closest thing is the YJ-7 which is from 1997, and the current main stay for small aircraft launched ATGM is KD-88, which is 2004.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Sat 26 Nov 2016 20:00

Alright, then your über-cluster loadout on the JH-7 looks like the best anti tank option China has to offer.

Also, I read somewhere that the Q-5 had some armour plating that was heavier than regular planes. What was the extent of such armor, and would it be meaningful enough to give it 1 or 2 armor? Moreover, does 1AV affect Spaags or just small arms?

And finally, what are the intro dates for the J-7C, D and E? Afaik J-7C was from 1985, D from 1991, and E ´s first flight was in 1987.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby keldon » Sat 26 Nov 2016 20:12

Bougnas wrote:Alright, then your über-cluster loadout on the JH-7 looks like the best anti tank option China has to offer.

Also, I read somewhere that the Q-5 had some armour plating that was heavier than regular planes. What was the extent of such armor, and would it be meaningful enough to give it 1 or 2 armor? Moreover, does 1AV affect Spaags or just small arms?

And finally, what are the intro dates for the J-7C, D and E? Afaik J-7C was from 1985, D from 1991, and E ´s first flight was in 1987.


It had armor to protect the pilot, but i doubt it is on the level of A-10/Su-25.

J-7C is from 1984, J-7D is from 1991, J-7E is from 1990.
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby Bougnas » Sat 26 Nov 2016 20:14

keldon wrote:
Bougnas wrote:Alright, then your über-cluster loadout on the JH-7 looks like the best anti tank option China has to offer.

Also, I read somewhere that the Q-5 had some armour plating that was heavier than regular planes. What was the extent of such armor, and would it be meaningful enough to give it 1 or 2 armor? Moreover, does 1AV affect Spaags or just small arms?

And finally, what are the intro dates for the J-7C, D and E? Afaik J-7C was from 1985, D from 1991, and E ´s first flight was in 1987.


It had armor to protect the pilot, but i doubt it is on the level of A-10/Su-25.

J-7C is from 1984, J-7D is from 1991, J-7E is from 1990.


Wow then China truly deserves the flavour of a Mig 21 that can turn :lol:
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Re: Fine-tuning NK/China

Postby another505 » Sat 26 Nov 2016 20:23

Bougnas wrote:
Wow then China truly deserves the flavour of a Mig 21 that can turn :lol:

the last J-7 was made in 2013, the 16 F-7BGI for Bangladesh which would probably be in their airforce at least 20 years . With all fancy avionics, and capable precision guided weapons (keldon would know more) China kept the USSR's legacy alive and better for a long time, such as the Type-59 that is still used today, heavily upgraded in mid 90s. (Sigh, Type-59D... you will show the leopard 1 who is the boss...)


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just going to wiki its info, loading chinese sites for me takes ages.......


F-7 BGI has a speed of Mach 2.2
7 Hard-points to carry air-to-air missiles, laser-guided bomb, GPS-guided bombs, drop tanks
Full glass cockpit.
can carry 3000 kg bomb, including Chinese laser-guided bombs.
F-7 BGI has KLJ-6F radar Fire control Radar with 86 km+ Range which is near BVR or BVR considering what is the silver lining between them and can track 6 and engage 2 enemy aircraft simultaneously.
F-7 BGI can carry C-704 Antiship Missiles (Therefore, maritime also possible)
afterburner: F-7 BGI (82 kN) thrust
Missiles procurement are currently unknown for F-7 BGI but they can fire the 70–75 km range PL-12,PL-11 and also PL-2, PL-5, PL-7, PL-8, PL-9, Magic R.550 and AIM-9 .
F-7 BGI got J-7G2 Airframe with double delta wing. This improves the lift at high angles of attack and delays or prevents stalling.
G-limit: +8 g / -3 g
Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,420 ft) for F-7 BGI
3 Multi functional HUD displays and HOTAS.
Chinese Helmet Mounted Sights.
Reportedly more maneuverable than most of the Mig21s and many of the other contemporary fighters.
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