Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please fix

User avatar
Jereth
Lieutenant
Posts: 1025
Joined: Mon 5 Mar 2012 06:27
Location: Northern Virginia, USA
Contact:

Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please fix

Postby Jereth » Wed 3 Jul 2013 18:45

Spoiler : A compiled list of replays from this thread: :
As requested by FLX. If you add one for discussion in this thread and I miss it, shoot me a PM or something.

http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=171 - Coordinated NATO team helo rushing a coordinated PACT team.
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=238 - 1/3 Canadian helo rush against random PACT.
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=255 - 1/3 Polish helo rush vs random NATO.
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=272 - Coordinated NATO helo rush vs random PACT (lobby named "helo rush").
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=221 - Coordinated NATO pre-nerf puma pirate rush vs coordinated PACT.
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=222 - Coordinated NATO pre-nerf puma pirate rush vs coordinated PACT.
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=223 - Failed coordinated NATO pre-nerf puma pirate rush vs coordinated PACT.
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=224 - Failed coordinated NATO pre-nerf puma pirate rush vs coordinated PACT.
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=282 - Failed PACT hybrid helo/plane rush vs NATO.
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=283 - Coordinated PACT vs semi-coordinated NATO (defenders warned of helo rush).
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=284 - Failed coordinated PACT vs coordinated NATO (defenders given every advantage possible).
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=301 - Failed 1/2 PACT Mi-24V rush vs NATO (no indication of coordination on either side).
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=307 - Failed 1/3 NATO airborne infantry rush vs PACT.
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=310 - NATO helo rush vs NATO (ranked 1v1).
http://alb-replays.info/#/browse/?view=347 - DRAW 3/4 NATO helo rush vs coordinated PACT.



The Problem:
Highly available and low cost helicopters are able to be deployed in such great numbers that a more sensible combined arms force simply cannot hope to overcome before their command vehicles are destroyed.

This tournament match is a textbook example of what is possible under the current meta. The recent changes to the pirate aren't anywhere near what is required to stop this kind of helo spam. As you can see, the Brandenburger team fielded a fairly well rounded force, and obviously had a coordinated plan. Once they saw the cloud of gunships coming in, they couldn't react in any meaningful way to save themselves.

This kind of all or nothing tactic is ridiculously overpowered. I'd go so far as to say the tactic that offers the best chance to win against this helo spam is not to spam anti-air, but to helo spam yourself.
Super67 wrote:its just super cheap and your team has no honor. regardless if it works, regardless if its part of the game.

Frankna wrote:you are better than that im sure of it but too scare to take any risk...

Lemieux wrote:without a counter anti-air cheese, seems almost impossible to stop.

Random wrote:I could teach a monkey to do this

Fussel wrote:pathetic abuse of game mechanics

[DAY]Topspin2005 wrote:I would really like to change the game in a way that these tactics are no more possible. For me the ultimate patch of Wargame:EE showed that it is possible to bring a game close to it.

So every serious discuss about such tactics in another seperate topic may help the devs to fix/improve things

As you can see, our demonstration sparked a lot of emotion from the community, who overwhelmingly responded that they agree with our position. Helo spam is a broken aspect of Wargame: AirLand Battle. Please fix it. We specifically chose this venue to gain maximum exposure for this issue, as just another whine thread about helo spam would be dismissed by the community as "l2p noobs". This tournament was invitation only among the established clans of Wargame, so the caliber of player that this is being used against is not your average random. These were seasoned players working together as a coherent team, and they were helpless against this broken tactic. As a continuing part of our service to the community, we not only have identified the problem, but will also propose a solution, and have started this thread to have a serious discussion on how to fix our beloved game.

The Solution:
The answer isn't as simple as the tactic itself. Firstly, I think it goes without saying that the combat effectiveness of helicopter infantry that survive the crash of their transport needs to be reduced to the point that they route immediately upon contact and continue to do so for a while. This is common sense, but does not solve all helo spam. I propose a three pronged solution.

1 - Slightly increase the effectiveness of planes versus helicopters
This can be achieved by increases to gun and IR missile ranges. Right now, planes are simply not effective enough against cheap helicopters.

2 - Slightly decrease the availability of cheap helicopters.
Cheap gunships like the gazelle and the Mi-2 are useless unless they are deployed en masse. Don't reduce it so much that they can never accomplish anything, but just enough to prevent all or nothing attacks like we demonstrated.

3 - Slightly buff low end MANPADS (redeye, strela, etc)
The hard counter to cheap helos should be cheap AA. An increase in these low end MANPADS rate of fire and ammo capacity will help them down spammable helicopters faster. Give people the tool for the job, and if they don't use it, the resulting helo spam is their own fault.

This three pronged approach allows for a lighter touch to solve this issue. If any of these changes were implemented individually, they would have to be to such a degree as to negatively affect the game in other areas. By going with this comprehensive solution, the affect is greater than the sum of its parts.

So in closing, this issue is serious enough to warrant a discussion from the community and I encourage the Marshals, Devs, and anyone who cares about this game to weigh in on this important issue.
Last edited by Jereth on Sat 27 Jul 2013 22:51, edited 11 times in total.

User avatar
DiabloTigerSix
Colonel
Posts: 2581
Joined: Tue 14 Feb 2012 21:06
Contact:

Re: Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please

Postby DiabloTigerSix » Wed 3 Jul 2013 18:51

Simply solution: the game should limit the percentage of your initial deployment points that you can spend on planes, helos and airborne infantry.

solaris
Lieutenant
Posts: 1400
Joined: Mon 13 May 2013 06:10
Contact:

Re: Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please

Postby solaris » Wed 3 Jul 2013 18:52

DiabloTigerSix wrote:Simply solution: the game should limit the percentage of your initial deployment points that you can spend on planes, helos and airborne infantry.


If this is implemented, make sure to also remove the Air Assault and Para specialization from the game.
Anecdotes do not count for game balance.

User avatar
DiabloTigerSix
Colonel
Posts: 2581
Joined: Tue 14 Feb 2012 21:06
Contact:

Re: Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please

Postby DiabloTigerSix » Wed 3 Jul 2013 18:54

solaris wrote:
DiabloTigerSix wrote:Simply solution: the game should limit the percentage of your initial deployment points that you can spend on planes, helos and airborne infantry.


If this is implemented, make sure to also remove the Air Assault and Para specialization from the game.

Why? Just because you're using those doesn't mean you have to spent all your points on freaken helo spam. I doesn't mean you're supposed to deploy all your helos in the beginning either.
Last edited by DiabloTigerSix on Wed 3 Jul 2013 18:54, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Halfbodied Jish
First Sergeant
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed 26 Jun 2013 19:16
Contact:

Re: Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please

Postby Halfbodied Jish » Wed 3 Jul 2013 18:54

This was beautiful. :cry:

But seriously I agree with this. Mainly with the planes ability to kill choppers. I mean it's a plane. How can you "not shoot" them until you are very close? This makes no sense.

Something else that could help is increase the AOE panic of cannon AA like the Flakpanzer, Pivads, Tunguska. etc. Currently if there are two choppers near each other and you shoot one it doesn't even phase the other one.
Last edited by Halfbodied Jish on Wed 3 Jul 2013 19:08, edited 1 time in total.
Image

solaris
Lieutenant
Posts: 1400
Joined: Mon 13 May 2013 06:10
Contact:

Re: Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please

Postby solaris » Wed 3 Jul 2013 18:58

DiabloTigerSix wrote:Why? Just because you're using those doesn't mean you have to spent all your points on freaken helo spam. I doesn't mean you're supposed to deploy all your helos in the beginning either.


Actually it does. You literally cannot get infantry in trucks or apcs with an Air Assault deck. I misspoke about Para.

They don't get any helicopters. At all. Not a single one. No logistics helicopters, no troop transports, no attack helos. (USSR Para get Ka-50. Nothing else)
Anecdotes do not count for game balance.

User avatar
Jawehawk
Lieutenant
Posts: 1206
Joined: Tue 30 Apr 2013 14:57
Location: Denmark

Re: Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please

Postby Jawehawk » Wed 3 Jul 2013 19:04

Simple solution. Perma-ban the useless players that use such cheap tactics.
Last edited by [DAY]Topspin2005 on Wed 3 Jul 2013 19:15, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: language

User avatar
DeuZerre
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 11125
Joined: Mon 27 Feb 2012 23:17
Location: Universe, Galaxy, Solar System, Earth, Ground, Eurasian Continent, Main Landmass.
Contact:

Re: Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please

Postby DeuZerre » Wed 3 Jul 2013 19:19

Jereth wrote:1 - Slightly increase the effectiveness of planes versus helicopters
This can be achieved by increases to gun and IR missile ranges. Right now, planes are simply not effective enough against cheap helicopters.


Planes like the "New" Sea Harrier can do well. That said, the effectiveness of planes was reduced when Radar & SemAct missiles could still aim at helos. now that they can't, IR missiles should get back to their former glory, or at least I'll try to make it so...

2 - Slightly decrease the availability of cheap helicopters.
Cheap gunships like the gazelle and the Mi-2 are useless unless they are deployed en mass. Don't reduce it so much that they can never accomplish anything, but just enough to prevent all or nothing attacks like we demonstrated.

Reducing the number of PACKS down to 1 for all of those (Gazelle Canon, Mi-2 US, Mi-2 URN ZMIJA, UH-1C HOG) would probably be better than reducing the availability per pack.

3 - Slightly buff low end MANPADS (redeye, strela, etc)
The hard counter to cheap helos should be cheap AA. An increase in these low end MANPADS rate of fire and ammo capacity will help them down spammable helicopters faster. Give people the tool for the job, and if they don't use it, the resulting helo spam is their own fault.

Ammo capacity was reduced when these guys were too good against planes. I guess it could go up again. Low RoF is ridiculous too, I agree.

I'll add that I asked for the PUMA MIRATE to only be able to carry Legion and RIMA. Instead we got HE only. Well... good enough i guess.
Image
Marshal honoris causa
FLX wrote:Removing the weaknesses from the divisions leads to all divisions being the same in the long run. We won't proceed like that.

User avatar
Jereth
Lieutenant
Posts: 1025
Joined: Mon 5 Mar 2012 06:27
Location: Northern Virginia, USA
Contact:

Re: Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please

Postby Jereth » Wed 3 Jul 2013 19:44

DeuZerre wrote:Reducing the number of PACKS down to 1 for all of those (Gazelle Canon, Mi-2 US, Mi-2 URN ZMIJA, UH-1C HOG) would probably be better than reducing the availability per pack.

Maybe. I think reducing the availability per card allows for a finer degree of tuning. I don't want these units to become extinct, but just reduced enough to prevent all out rushes.

startrekmike
Corporal
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun 26 May 2013 00:03
Contact:

Re: Community agrees, helo spam is unstoppable, Eugen please

Postby startrekmike » Wed 3 Jul 2013 19:48

There will always be players who spam, if it is not helicopters that are complained about, it would be something else.

Some players just spam and that's it, write down their names and don't play with them again.

Return to “Wargame : AirLand Battle”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 8 guests