Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

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DoktorvonWer
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Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

Postby DoktorvonWer » Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:27

That's right, I'm not here to talk about the UK deck. I have some thoughts about Canada, and how it can be safely buffed to be more viable.

The two things I namely want to address:


1. ADATS availability

Could these not have 2 cards available? They're the only AA that Canada has, so 6 of them isn't really sufficient to mount a defence against any enemy air power, especially given their high cost.


Why it's a good idea

The Canadian deck has no interceptor whatsoever to fill the gap (unlike, say, the UK, which has the Tornado ADVs and even the Sea Harrier FRS.1), so when you only have a maximum of 6 AA units, with no AAA to back them up, you're in a really impossible situation when it comes to air defence.

Whilst recognising that this is a specific weakness of the Canadian deck, in its current state it's a bit too much. Making a second card of ADATS available would help fill out the deck so it can better defend against air, without affecting the overall deck strategy very much.


Why it's a safe buff

  • The ADATS is a Canadian prototype - adding in a second card won't be disproportionately powerful, as the ADATS is not available to a mixed NATO deck.
  • The ADATS is a 1989 unit - adding in a second card won't see them spammable with a Category B or C deck, as they're only available to a non-categorised Canadian deck. This is already visible; the current low availability can't be remedied by a categorised deck.
  • Canada isn't about to become a strong AA deck even with twice as many ADATS. They are something of a dual-role novelty, and are expensive; you're not going to see Canadian decks being used for AA spam.
  • The NATO deck won't lose any capability by having these jets as Canadian prototypes.



2. CF-188 Hornet card setup

These are Canada's best plane. They lack interceptors or any air superiority fighters; this is as close as they get to one. But they're currently limited to one per card, which is balanced to a mixed NATO deck, but not to a Canadian deck.

I feel they should have a re-arrangement in their availability similar to what was done with the Tornado ADV F3 for the UK deck - 2 units per card, and make them into a Prototype unit so this can't be abused by a Mixed NATO deck.



Why it's a good idea

These planes are the only really good thing the Canadian air deck has going for it. They're a good multirole, but don't dominate at anything, and have a hefty price-tag. This in mind, the Canadian deck seems painfully limited by their ability to only field 2 of them, and to have to pay 2 cards to do so.

Buffing their availability to 2 per card whilst restricting them as a Canadian prototype unit would help the Canadian national deck contribute something more useful in the air department.


Why it's a safe buff

  • Making this into a prototype unit in exchange for the availability buff would work much as the changes to the Tornado ADV did - they won't be abusable by mixed NATO for extra good planes, but the viability of a Canadian national deck will be increased.
  • This is a 1983 unit - the availability increase wouldn't be exploitable by a categorised deck.
  • These things cost 175 each. I think it's been debated around the boards whether they're worth this grand fee or not, but the cost would balance against this availability buff - you're not likely to see them spammed early game, and mis-using the extra availability will cost a player dearly in points.





On a final note, I have to query whether the ADATS is bugged or its stats inaccurate? I deploy these as Veterans (4/5 experience), and in my last game with them, they scored less than 15% of their shots on enemy jets, very few of which had ECM better than 'Medium'. Apart from the fact that the ADATS accuracy is coloured 'exceptional', these were also heavily vetted, and as the special party-unit of the Canadian deck, I was very surprised to find they seemed so incapable of hitting anything that flies; it seemed quite extreme. Was this just a really unlucky game? I can't help but wonder if there's a bug the opposite of the old super-accuracy bug for the CEV and AVRE and it's not being as accurate as it should be.
Last edited by DoktorvonWer on Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

Postby Kamil » Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:32

DoktorvonWer wrote:On a final note, I have to query whether the ADATS is bugged or its stats inaccurate? I deploy these as Veterans (4/5 experience), and in my last game with them, they scored less than 15% of their shots on enemy jets, very few of which had ECM better than 'Medium'. Apart from the fact that the ADATS accuracy is coloured 'exceptional', these were also heavily vetted, and as the special party-unit of the Canadian deck, I was very surprised to find they seemed so incapable of hitting anything that flies; it seemed quite extreme. Was this just a really unlucky game? I can't help but wonder if there's a bug the opposite of the old super-accuracy bug for the CEV and AVRE and it's not being as accurate as it should be.

Its because adats is guided.

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Re: Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

Postby DoktorvonWer » Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:36

Kamil wrote:
DoktorvonWer wrote:On a final note, I have to query whether the ADATS is bugged or its stats inaccurate? I deploy these as Veterans (4/5 experience), and in my last game with them, they scored less than 15% of their shots on enemy jets, very few of which had ECM better than 'Medium'. Apart from the fact that the ADATS accuracy is coloured 'exceptional', these were also heavily vetted, and as the special party-unit of the Canadian deck, I was very surprised to find they seemed so incapable of hitting anything that flies; it seemed quite extreme. Was this just a really unlucky game? I can't help but wonder if there's a bug the opposite of the old super-accuracy bug for the CEV and AVRE and it's not being as accurate as it should be.

Its because adats is guided.


I presume you mean because it's SemAct Laser guidance, but that doesn't account for its inaccuracy. SACLOS Tracked Rapier performs just fine, as does Roland I and the SACLOS-controlled MANPADS, with good results. ADATS only fires when stationary anyway, so there isn't a guidance penalty being incurred from movement, so their inaccuracy remains a mystery here.
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Re: Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

Postby orcbuster » Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:39

Only thing that matters in acc is the number and that is 9, so baseline acc is about 45% not taking ECM into account if the plane stays within the weapon range, if it gets out of that range before it hits it will always miss
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Re: Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

Postby Kamil » Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:41

DoktorvonWer wrote:
Kamil wrote:
DoktorvonWer wrote:On a final note, I have to query whether the ADATS is bugged or its stats inaccurate? I deploy these as Veterans (4/5 experience), and in my last game with them, they scored less than 15% of their shots on enemy jets, very few of which had ECM better than 'Medium'. Apart from the fact that the ADATS accuracy is coloured 'exceptional', these were also heavily vetted, and as the special party-unit of the Canadian deck, I was very surprised to find they seemed so incapable of hitting anything that flies; it seemed quite extreme. Was this just a really unlucky game? I can't help but wonder if there's a bug the opposite of the old super-accuracy bug for the CEV and AVRE and it's not being as accurate as it should be.

Its because adats is guided.


I presume you mean because it's SemAct Laser guidance, but that doesn't account for its inaccuracy. SACLOS Tracked Rapier performs just fine, as does Roland I and the SACLOS-controlled MANPADS, with good results. ADATS only fires when stationary anyway, so there isn't a guidance penalty being incurred from movement, so their inaccuracy remains a mystery here.


I just want to said that if its guided when lose LOS rocket ll miss (often happened to tunguska). Roland, tracked rapier, stinger etc are F&F so they need less than sec to shoot its missle and their missle still have chance to hit even if they lose LOS.

edit. And yes adats is very weak as AA.
Last edited by Kamil on Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

Postby DoktorvonWer » Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:41

Kamil wrote:I just want to said that if its guided when lose LOS rocket ll miss (often happened to tunguska). Roland, tracked rapier, stinger etc are F&F so they need less than sec to shoot its missle and their missle still have chance to hit even if they lose LOS.

edit. And yes adats is very weak as AA.


orcbuster wrote:Only thing that matters in acc is the number and that is 9, so baseline acc is about 45% not taking ECM into account if the plane stays within the weapon range, if it gets out of that range before it hits it will always miss


Ah, I see. I do rather feel it may deserve the Fire-and-Forget stat added to it then - just like the Roland I and the Rapier have to sort this problem. I suspect it's the leaving range that causes them to be ineffectual, which seems unfair for the only Canadian AA and a 90-point one, at that.

At any rate, my original suggestion stands and is what I really made the topic about - with or without F&F, 6 of them maximum is cripplingly low availability.
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Re: Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

Postby Graphic » Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:45

Canada is in good hands.
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Re: Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

Postby DoktorvonWer » Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:46

Graphic wrote:Canada is in good hands.


Are they gently moisturised hands?

I'll take this to be encouraging news for the Canadian deck generally, though. I do recall they're getting Javelin MANPADS, so perhaps they're receiving some general loving.
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Re: Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

Postby Graphic » Mon 22 Jul 2013 10:56

MAW have been significantly buffed, and Pathfinders are becoming a full fledged elite infantry unit. There are other things on the table too but those are secret for now.
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Re: Buff Request Thread for... Canada?

Postby DoktorvonWer » Mon 22 Jul 2013 11:05

Graphic wrote:MAW have been significantly buffed, and Pathfinders are becoming a full fledged elite infantry unit. There are other things on the table too but those are secret for now.


Should be interesting to see what you came up with for the MAW.

I noticed this when I was deck-building today, is this.. Super-oversized FN FAL on the Pathfinders (presumably the C2A1) a known bug, by the way? It's huuuuge:

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