community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

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Torrisco
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community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

Postby Torrisco » Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:39

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The list below show what some marshals think that could be done to improve the AA for those minor factions, and avoid helo clouds of doom without make helos totally useless, since there is controversy with this change between some marshals, i would like to know what do you think about them.

I just ask to you to be honest and beyond the personal preferences, comment, suggest, agree or disagree.



NATO AA CHANGES:

Roland-2 ----> 2800m back - 2975m / 3325m
Roland-3 ----> 2975m - 3150m/ 3500m
M48A1 Chap-> -1HE?
Rapier ------> 2800m / 2625m?
Rapier-FSA --> 2625m?- 2800 / 3150m
M48 --------> 2625m / 2275m
ADATS?-----> 3325m / 2800m ?
LVRBV 701--> 1989 Prototype, RBS70 mk II --> 2800m / 2275m
NM195------> 1989 Prototype, RBS70 mk II --> 2800m / 2275m

the changes with blue color are the conservative ones or the most sensible ones.
the changes with "?" are the ones still without any kind of agreement

PACT AA CHANGES:

Osa --------> 2100m/2975m
Osa-AK -----> 2100m/3150m
Osa-AKM --->2975m-3150m/3325m-3500m "showing their improvement in the anti helo duty IRL"
Strela-1 ----> +175m vs helos ---->2625m / 2100m
Strela-10---> +175m vs helos---->2625m / 2100m
Strela-10M-->+175m vs helos---->2625m / 2100m

the changes with red color are the conservative ones or the most sensible ones.

Generic and AAA

Basic AAA = 2275/2275 (gun trucks like the Zu-23)
Optical AAA = 2450/2275
RADAR AAA = 2450/2450
Improved AAA = 2625/2625
BORK BORK BBB = 2800/2800

What do you think about those changes?
take into account,
units for pre 75' and 80' decks
prototype units which only will affect that nation
Inablity for some nations to defend vs helos since they use just RAD units.

Thanks in advance :D
Last edited by Torrisco on Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:46, edited 1 time in total.
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orcbuster
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Re: community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

Postby orcbuster » Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:45

Damn, back to the old days huh.

well the prototype units will definitly affect the mixed decks but that might be a good thing.

Rapier at 2700 would seem reasonable
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Re: community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

Postby Bryan » Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:47

I like.
But you ave to make Briyusa as good as MTLB Strela 10M as they were to complement each other....according to mighty Soviet Doctrine!

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Torrisco
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Re: community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

Postby Torrisco » Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:48

orcbuster wrote:Damn, back to the old days huh.

well the prototype units will definitly affect the mixed decks.

Rapier at 2750 would seem reasonable


ranges only can be increased or decreased by 175m, and whats the difference betwenn 2800 and 2750? :lol: :lol:
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Re: community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

Postby zbone » Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:49

I'll just quote myself.
zbone wrote:Until ridiculous and unrealistic aspect of AA operating hidden in forest and bushes removed from the game any talk about realistic balance is moot.

My take on balance:
Max ATGM missile range must almost match max anti-helo range in the game. Because it's how things work in reality: chopper can't hit AA without being able to get arty or missile back in the face. I would give some 10% leeway in favor of AA because it has easier time scanning for threats. I would say 2700 max anti-helo range for SAMS and 2500 max ATGM range.
However, I agree that there should be very few so maxed out ATGM airborne platforms.

Next:
- Max heli range of AA systems must be more or less close with max range varying no more than 25%. What makes system different is accuracy. Lots of SAMS must not be able to engage helicopters at all unless they were capable of doing this IRL. Yes, OSA-AK, I am looking at you.
- There must be minimum launch distance for SAMS missiles around 20% of max range. If a chopper made it that close, you are screwed IRL as all those systems have dead zones.
- AAA must be devastating on distances below 1km. I mean a single AAA unit must tear helicopter to pieces in a matter of seconds. On distances 1km to 2km it should be roll of dice and do more of a moral damage, similar performance Tunguska cannon does possess right now. It sort of shoots and sort of hits and even have chances to do some harm.
- MANPADS must be deadly and one shot most helicopters with range up to 1500m with availability nerfed.

That's my take on it :)


You simply can't allow SAMS to sit in cover and still be able to shoot further than helicopters. It's both unrealistic and imbalanced. The only option is to leave your SAM in a classic ambush, i.e. from opposite/fringe side of a cover so when a heli or an airplane flies over it the SAM can shoot to rear half sphere.

The proposed changes would simply shut down helicopters except for early rushes.
Last edited by zbone on Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

Postby Sleksa » Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:49

The longer the range, the less HE the systems should have so there appears a proper risk to reward ratio. 3500m anti-helo shouldn't exist, 3200 or so being the absolute maximum to stop covering a whole sector area with a single tunguska/m48.

Osa akm's proposed values are even higher than the nerfed roland 2's, while retaining the great rate of fire, omni-aa and decent availability.

AAA ranges are still quite bad though, there's simply no reason to choose shilkas over tunguskas or other missile based units, and for nato there's no reason to choose vulcans over rolands and chaps, coupled with their long time to kill and sead vulnerability they're a gimmick, apart from pact minors which have to make do with the zsu 57.

I think the proposed values would only hurt offensive play and widen the gap between the few useful aa and the crap.
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Re: community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

Postby Torrisco » Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:51

Bryan wrote:I like.
But you ave to make Briyusa as good as MTLB Strela 10M as they were to complement each other....according to mighty Soviet Doctrine!



biryusa would be in the "improved AAA" ranges 2625m/2625m, coupled with the improvement in strelas, to match exactly what you say.
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Re: community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

Postby Kin-Luu » Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:51

This looks good and would even out the balance across the nations. But some questions remain:

SAMs:

- Strela-1/10 could need an even bigger buff.
- The Avenger card is not competitive with teh M48A1 card.
- The Mistral Truck is not competitive with the AMX-30 Roland card.

AAAs:

- The range should be dictated by the guns, while the acc should be dictated by the type of FCS.
- There needs to be more dakka. Number of rolls/time should be increased for all AAA.
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Re: community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

Postby hhhmmm » Wed 21 Aug 2013 14:56

I don't think the Roland should get the 2800m back. It's the hardest AA to kill by other means.

Giving AAA ranges of 2900 might be cool though. So they can try to stun without getting killed by atgms immediately.

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Re: community thoughts request regarding the AA balance.

Postby Ferrard Carson » Wed 21 Aug 2013 15:00

I don't see anything that stands out to be as "imba-imba-imba," and I would be all for stronger ADNs in general, as would result from proposed changes... Might see the Marder Roland 2 lose that freakish 2 top-armor since it would be a good general-use SAM again.

I especially like the SPAAG buff - a good way to boost minors without overly causing WTFBBQ with Mixed NATO / USSR. Means my efforts to make an ADN out of nothing but cheap SPAAG spam might actually be viable too :lol:

Are ZPU's being considered in this list of changes, or will they retain their 1450m vs. Helicopter, 0 vs. Fixed wing?

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