Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

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Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby H-J » Sun 1 Sep 2013 00:29

So, with the People's Republic of China confirmed, let us talk about possible units of the mighty PLA that could appear in the game, which are within the time-frame till 1991.

I've seen members who are knowledgeable about Chinese military matters here already debating about this topic in another threads, but I think that it would be good if we had a dedicated one here. This might also help Eugen in their researche and selection as well.

Due to the timeframe that limits us with 1991 as the cut-off year for unit selection (ignoring prototypes, of course), things are kinda difficult, because most new and exciting stuff, not just for the PRC, but also for the other Asian major combattants, will only appear some years later IRL. But that is just my own complaint. So, nevermind.

Let us start with some of the easiest categories:

Spoiler : :
From what I've gathered,; Chinese designation for MBTs is always "ZTZ" meaning "Armor (Zhuang Jia/ 装甲), Tank (Tan Ke/坦克), Main-Battle (Zhu Zhan/主战)"
Chinese tanks in general are comparable with french tanks IMHO. Rather bad armor made up with good accuracy and firepower due to their western imported/derived guns. Difference from the french would be good stabilizers, due to imported technologies during the sino-american honeymoon of the late 70's and 80s.
Chinese "heavy tank" prototypes deviate from this characteristic and offer good protection and powerful guns like similiar western and eastern tanks.

Low-Tier Tanks:

ZTZ-59: Obviously, since these copies of the T-54A were and are still in widespread use in the PLA within Cat. C units. Armed with 100mm D-10T rifled
gun (Type 59 in chinese designation) and a Type 54/DShK 12.7mm AAMG. No major differences between this one and the T-55 of other pact nations.

ZTZ-59-I: The first major improvement of the ZTZ-59. It is comparable with the T-55A, being equipped with a laser rangefinder and primitive fire-control systems. Gun is still the 100mm rifled. I'd give it stats like the T-55A, except the AP11, as China would have had no access to the improved munitions the Russian had during that time due to the sino-soviet split. So, ACC5 and AP9, balanced by either a price decrease of an availability boost.

ZTZ-59-II: Second major improvement to the ZTZ-59; but this time a very major one: Gun is changed to the british L-7 derived NATO 105mm gun designated as Type 81 (1981), has improved laser rangefinder and FCS, and has a well working gun-stabilization. So, this tank should get, IMHO, a 1920m range, ACC6, AP12, "Medium" stabs, "Bad" Optics. Armor wasnt improved from the base-line ZTZ-59, so the vanilla T-55 stats here apply. Price should be around 25-35 pts, or so.

An improved variant of the ZTZ-59II, the Type 69, was an export success, most notably being operated by Iraq and Iran. This variant has a D-10T derived 100mm gun instead of the Type 81 105mm gun, but everything else was similiar. Because this type was not adopted by the PLA and the Type 59-II, its 'bigger brother' was its equivalent, i'd suggest Eugen to ignore this type, despite its produced numbers that reach the thousands (all in service to nations other than China).

ZTZ-59-IIA: A major improvement of the major improvement. Composite armor inserts was applied in this variant of the 59-II, as well as anti-RPG cage/storage racks were mounted surrounding the turret, giving it improved armor compared to earlier variants - but probably not much. So, armor should be about same as the T-55AM, while the ACC, AP and Stabs and Optics are remaining the same as the ZTZ-59-II. Pics: ... 1.jpg.html
Price should be 35-45.

There was also an experimental prototype of the ZTZ-59-IIA equipped with the 120mm BW120K gun, that was said to be comparable to the Rheinmetal L-44 120mm gun, and which has then evolved into the Type-89 120mm gun equipped on China's PTZ-89 tank destroyer still in limited service today. Dont know whether this variant should be included or not, since it was only an experimental type produced in very small numbers. But could be interesting. If so, i'd suggest a slow-driving and slow-firing, but powerful tank with a clearly oversized gun.

Medium Tanks:

I envision the ZTZ-79, 88B and 88A being variants of one line, due to their common lineage.

ZTZ-79: The official cut-off between 1st and 2nd generation of MBT in the PLA (it actually began with the Type 69, but since it wasnt in PLA service, 2nd gen began with the ZTZ-79). The ZTZ-79 incorporated many improvements of the ZTZ-59-IIA, while expanding those with newer, western technologies: Type 81 105mm gun was replaced with an improved Type 83 gun (with its characteristic british-styled "coating") that offered more accuracy and muzzle velocity, hence, greater AP. passive infrared was also included, as well as the British Marconi FCS package, inlcuding laser rangefinder, ballistic computer and a more quality gunner sight.
Stats wise, i'd give it the same Armor protection as the ZTZ-59-IIA, while the firepower is improved by a 2100m ranged ACC7, AP13 gun. Stabilizers remain with "Medium", while the optics got better (Bad to Poor).
Price should be around 40-50

ZTZ-88B: The basic ZTZ-88 is the major improvement of the ZTZ-79 and the "B" is most numerous production variant of the ZTZ-88 series: Different chassis compared to the ZTZ-59/79, no matter the outwards similiarities, are its distinctive features: Instead of five road-wheels, it now has six, corrensponding with a longer overall chassis and heavier weight.

The basic ZTZ-88 was already equipped with an improved Type 83 gun without the "british coating", a modern western FCS and a very good stabilization system enabling it accurate fire on the move (see this video, or this Armor and engine power (730hp vs 520hp) was also improved over the earlier 1st and 2nd generation tanks.
FCS was further improved with an image-stabilized FCS replacing the light-spot fire-control system in the basic ZTZ-88 variant. Passive IR vision guaranteed good night fighting capability. The loading mechanism was also improved to allow it to fire improved 105mm APFSDS munitions.

Stats should be; frontal AV10, side AV4 2100m range gun, ACC8, AP14, RoF7. Optics should be "Medium", while its main selling point, its good stabilization, should be at least "Good". DShK included.
Price: 60-70

Availability should be reasonable (as this tank would be China's mainstay unit and "bread and butter-tank" if Cold War turned hot or a Second Korean War would break out and the ZTZ-88's are in service to the Northern Chinese armor regiments and divisions that would be among the first to respond in case of war in the peninsula), so 12 in two cards.

ZTZ-88A: The "better" ZTZ-88 upgrade, produced in lower numbers than the "B", and featuring more advanced (and expensive) systems. The gun is now a long-barreled Type 83-I 105mm gun with more accuracy and velocity. Armor improvements include FY-series dual ERA tiles capable of offering resistance to HEAT and APFSDS rounds.

Stats: Frontal AV11-12, side AV5, 2275m range gun, ACC8, AP15, RoF7. Stabs "Good", Optics "Medium". DShK included.
Price: 75-80
Availability should be 12 with one card, since this would be a "prototype" in that time-frame.

ZTZ-59D: A late variant ZTZ-59 with capabilities putting it firmly within the medium range. Produced in the 1990s and now making up a significant portion of the PLA tank-forces, it features a serious firepower upgrade that puts the ZTZ88 series in shame. It is equipped with a very long Type 83-II 105mm gun (it is seriously very long and looking strange when mounted on a T-55 derivate:, giving it around 600mm RHA penetration with APFSDS munitions, as well as long reach and accuracy. It also has ERA tiles around the turret front and glacis, protective racks and improved armor inserts. FCS is upgraded with thermal imaging and fully stabilized sights for both gunner and commander, as well as dual axis stabs for the gun that were standard since the ZTZ-59-II. The gun is now also capable of launching chinese self-developed 105mm gun-launched ATGMs based on the Bastion 100mm ATGM.

There are two variants of the ZTZ59D. The "59D" with missiles and the "59D1" without missiles.

Stats: Frontal AV11, Side AV5, 2275m gun, ACC8, AP16, RoF7, Stabs "Medium", Optics "Medium". DShK mounted.
Price: 75-80 (D1 or D)
Availability should be about 8 (D, D1) in one card each. Also a Prototype.

Heavy Tanks:

The category of the protypes, as many of these were either experiemental varaints that developed into service tanks later on, or actual prototypes that still took a few years of development before entering service.

Type 90-II: No "ZTZ" designation this time, since this tank was not actually adopted by the PLA in its initial form, but was more of an export success, as it was modified and produced as Al-Khalid tank for Pakistan (500 in service), while its sister-variant, the Type 85-IIM/III developed into the ZTZ-96/A, which now is China's backbone tank with over 2500 copies in service. But back then in 1992, the year of it presentation to the international audience (suggesting that the development of this tank completed earlier and within time frame of W:RD), it was the most advanced tank China could offer.
It is the first Chinese tank featuring a western styled welded, squarish turret with composite inserts and ERA tiles, as well as a copy of the russian 2A46 autoloader and a indigenous 48 caliber 125mm gun based on the same 2A46. The gun and the tank's FCS is also capable of firing 9M119 Refleks gun launched missiles. The AAMG is now the Type 85 12.7x108mm HMG.
The Type-90 series is in nearly every aspect comparable with the T-72 series of tank, with the more advanced variants being comparable with the T-72B and its upgrades.

Stats: Frontal AV15 (16 if we decide to include ERA, like the later Type 90-IIM variant that was presented in 2000: ... T.JPG),
Side AV8, 2275m gun range , ACC7, AP18, 2800m Refleks ATGM, RoF7 (or 8 if we want to be realistic). Stabs "Normal" and Optics "Normal". Speed 70km/h. Type 85 HMG included (like the NSVT with ACC3).

Price: 95-125, Availability about the same as the T-72B or B1, depending on whether there should be a variant with or without ATGMs.

In RL it is a prototype, but since this tank already had matured by the end of the timeframe of the game, it is believable that the Type 90-II would be rushed into service when war broke out. So, whether or not this should be a prototype, depends on the balance.

ZTZ-98: The prototype of the ZTZ-99 (more known as simply the "Type 99") tank in service to the elite units of the PLA armored corps. Despite what its designation implies, the ZTZ-98 is actually within timeframe as the prototype was built in 1989-1990, and would have been rushed into service when WWIII broke out.
The ZTZ-98 is outwards very similiar to the T-72 series at least from the looks of its chassis, but one shouldnt forget that the Chinese stretched the entire chassis to mount more armor and a large and bulky German derived 1500hp Diesel engine on that tank (For the size difference between the ZTZ98/99 and T-72, look here:
Its gun is a much improved variant of the earlier indigenous 125mm gun, designated as the ZPT-98 50 caliber 125mm gun, featuring high power and accuracy. Autoloader is based on the same 2A46 autoloader, albeit improved with a larger turret ring diameter enabling the loading of 24 instead of 22 ready to fire rounds and overall longer APFSDS penetrator rods, giving it more AP power (also due to its DU rounds based on the Sino-Israeli Type-IIM 125mm round:
FCS are of fairly modern standard, with thermal vision for both gunner and commander, hunter-killer capability and full gun-stabilization.

Stats should be: Frontal AV17, Side AV9, 2275m range gun, Refleks ATGM, ACC9, AP19, RoF10. Type 85 AAMG included. Stabs: "Good", Optics "Normal".
Price: 140-155, Availability should be in line with other nation's high end heavies.

I dont know whether Active Protection Systems (APS) will be modeled in W:RD, but if it was, it would be nice if the JT-1 laser countermeasure/dazzler system was included. This system was designed to automatically detect, track and attack/suppress enemy optics and damage optronics like FCS and guidance systems, and to protect the tank from guided weapons and enemy laser-tracking/ranging.
If a APS mechanism was not included in W:RD, I'd at least suggest to give the ZTZ-98 a "Small" size, simulating its countermeasure system in denying the enemy any lasing and tracking attempts, which makes it harder for them to hit the tank.
The cost should be raised to 160 pts in that case.

Spoiler : :
Line Infantry and Reservists

Since the PLA is still undergoing the mechanization progress (which still isnt finished by 2013 - only 50% mechanization of the PLA as of today!), the bulk of the PLA forces in the early late 80's and 90's would be motorized troops, including her really numerous reservist force.

Mótuō huà bùbīng/摩托化步兵 - Motorized Infantry:

The bread and butter line infantry, so to speak. Standard trained and equipped regulars that ride on EQ2081 trucks, tracked ZSD63 APC, tracked ZSD89 APC and wheeled ZSL92A APC to get into the combat zone. They have no IFV transport options. Only 12.7mm armed APCs or unarmed trucks.
my suggestions:

Type-81 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC6
Type-69 85mm RPG - ACC8 AP14
Type-67-2 7.62x54 GPMG - ACC8 (STAT)
Speed 18 km/h
price: 10 pts
Avail: 20 in three cards as Trained

Yùbèiyì/预备役 - Reservists:

A very large force of a couple millions during the height or the Cold War. Nowadays (post 2000) reduced to "mere" 800.000. Their training and equippment does not reach the standard of the regulars, but they are by no means badly equipped - they are only armed with equipment that is one generation behind the current standard issue.
They are still a force to be reckoned with due to their size and availability. They should come with EQ2081 trucks only.

Type 56 (AK pattern) 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC5
Type 56 (RPG-2 pattern) RPG - ACC6 AP12
Type 67 7.62x54 GPMG - ACC5 (STAT)
Speed: 13km/h
price: 10 pts
Avail: 32 in one card as Rookie

Assault Infantry and Shock-Troops

The "Category A" infantry of the PLA. Those who benefitted from the fruits of the modernization drive the most. They all should come with the RoF bonus for veteran infantry.

Jīxiè huà Bùbīng 机械化步兵 - Mechanized Infantry:

These are assault infantry who received better equipment and training, making them the role-model of the modern PLA rifleman. They come with all the (for that time) new and shiny Infantry Fighting Vehicles, and are indoctrinated to fight the modern mechanized war. They appear with either the EQ2081 truck, tracked ZBD-86 (chinese BMP-1) and several prototype variants, ZSL-92 wheeled 6x6 IFV, and the ZSD90 (ZSD89 with 25mm turret). Downside is their high price due to their transport options.

Type 81 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC7 (with RoF boost)
Type 69 85mm RPG - ACC8 AP14
Type 81 7.62x39 LMG - ACC9 (CQC)
Speed: 18km/h
price: 15 pts
Avail: 16 in three cards, come as Hardened.

"15th KJJ"/Dì 15 kōngjiàng jūn/第15空降军 - 15th Airborne Corps:

The soldiers of the 15th KJJ can look back at a glorious history during Korean War, earning fame during the Battle of Triangle Hill in November 1952 when they were still ordinary foot-soldiers of the 15th Corps. Since then, they are considered to be the most elite corps sized formation in the entire PLA. As such, they became the first paratroopers of the Chinese armed forces, profitting the most from the technological modernization at that time. As the 15th KJJ belongs not to the PLA but the PLA Airforce (PLAAF), they can take advantage of air-transports.
They come with EQ2081 trucks, Armed Z-5 (Mi-4), Armed Z-9 (AS 365N Dauphin) and S-70C-2 Black Hawk.

Type 81-1 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC8
Type 69-II 85mm RPG - ACC8 AP16
Type 81 7.62x39 LMG - ACC9 (CQC)
Speed: 18km/h
Price: 20 pts
Avail: 12 in three cards, come as Hardened

Fáng huà bīng/防化兵 - Chemical Defense Troops:

The equivalent to the combat engineers of other nations. In the PLA, flame- and incindiary weapons are issued to the chemical defense companies/battalions of each infantry regiment/division, who form special anti-fortification combat groups consisting of flamethrower soldiers and others carrying the fearsome FHJ-84 dual 62mm incindiary launcher.
They come with EQ2081 trucks, tracked ZSD63 APC, tracked ZSD89 APC and wheeled ZSL92A APC.

Type 81 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC6 (no RoF bonus)
Type 74 Flamethrower (LPO-50 licence copy) - ACC6 (NPLM)
Speed: 18km/h
Price: 10 pts
Avail: 12 in two cards, come as Trained.

Hǎijūn lù zhànduì/海军陆战队 - PLA Marines:

Even though China has had a Marine Corps since the 1950's, it was disbanded in 1957 when China effectively gave up their goal of taking Taiwan. They were re-organized and re-established in 1979-1980 as a vastly smaller, but more elite force, while their main role of amphibious invasions was expanded to special operations, reconnaissance and island security (garrissoning the chinese occupied islets in the South China Sea, hence their characteristic blue-white "ocean"-camoflage that was specifically designed for those atolls covered knee-deep in azure-blue water).
Their main job and specialization is still the amphibious assault and the breaching of coastal fortifications, which is why I belive the PLA Marines need some non-standard weapon selections.
They come with EQ2081 trucks, ZSD-77 (more known as Type 77) tracked Amphib. APC, ZSD-63C tracked Amphib. APC, ZBD-86B Amphib. mod of the BMP-1, Z-8 (French SA 321 Super Frelon) navy transport helicopter.

Type 81 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC8
FHJ-84 62mm Incindiary Rocket Launcher - ACC7 HE3 (NPLM) (STAT)
Type 70 62mm AT launcher - ACC7 AP13
Speed: 18 km/h
Price: 30 pts
Avail: 12 in three cards, come as hardened

Special Forces

PLA special forces are comparably young, but they are still very traditional in their own sense, since the guerilla origin of the PLA influences them the most.

"Lì jiàn"/利剑 - Sharp Sword:

The "Sharp Sword" are only founded in the 80's, but their tradition runs way longer and way before their establishment as a dedicated special operations force within the PLA.
The name "Sharp Sword" was already used to describe the first units during the Chinese civil war of the 30's, WWII and Korean War, that were made of frontline-soldiers who were thrown together in an ad-hoc fashion, after being hand-picked by their superiors for their outstanding skills. These small, temporary units were then sent to perform dangerous commando missions behind enemy lines, after which they will just return to their original units until further need arises. This strange way to recruit highly skilled commandos made sense back then, since the PLA applied the core virtues of special operations forces across all ranks, that were stealth, infiltration, sabotage and scouting. This, combined with an army made of battle-hardened soldiers who fought non-stop in the last 30 years (in China's wars from 1920s to the 1950s), gave those temporary "Sharp Sword" teams a large pool to recuit their operatives from.
Only after the militarily disastrous Sino-Vietnamese War of 1979, where the PLA suffered great losses against even sneakier, battle hardened vietnamese, the PLA decided that they need a standing special operations force.
With their fairly successful trials of fire during the numerous Sino-Vietnamese border conflicts through the mid 80's, the PLA assessed that these "Sharp Swords" are an integral part in China's military modernization.
In the game, I'd suggest these guys to be armed with their iconic silenced SMGs, as well as the prototype PF89 80mm LAW.
They come with EQ2081 trucks, wheeled ZSL92A APC, Z-5 Helo, Z-9 Helo, S-70C-2 Black Hawk.

Type 64 7.62x25 silenced SMG - ACC9 (SF RoF boost)
PF89 80mm LAW - ACC10 AP14
Type 81 7.62x39 LMG - ACC9 (CQC)
Speed: 27 km/h
Price: 30 pts
Optics: Good
Avail: 6 in two cards, come as Veteran

AT troops

HJ-8 防坦克导弹 - Red Arrow-8 ATGM:

The HJ-8 ATGM is a modern SACLOS missile, capable of penetrating up to 800mm RHA at up to 3000 meters. Missile diameter is 120mm. It is very similiar to the Milan or HOT missile, possibly due to technology transfer in the 70's through 80.
The two man team should come with EQ2081 trucks, tracked ZSD63 APC, tracked ZSD89 APC, wheeled ZSL92A APC, Z-5 Helo, Z-9 Helo, S-70C-2 Black Hawk.

Type 81 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC6
HJ-8 ATGM - Range 2450m, ACC8, AP22
speed: 13 km/h
cost: 25
Avail: 8 in two cards, coming as Trained

红箭 HJ-8E - Red Arrow-8E ATGM:

A mid 90's upgrade of the HJ-8 and the main service variant today in the PLA. In our timeline, a possible prototype. Bigger warhead allowing up to 1000mm RHA penetration, 4000m range and improved SACLOS guidance.
The two man team should come with EQ2081 trucks, tracked ZSD63 APC, tracked ZSD89 APC, wheeled ZSL92A APC, Z-5 Helo and Z-9 Helo.

Type 81 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC6
HJ-8E ATGM - Range 2625m, ACC9, AP25
speed: 13 km/h
cost: 30
Avail: 8 in one card, coming as Trained

AD troops

红鸟 HN-5B / Redbird-5B MANPAD:

The HN-5B is the Chinese derivate of the Strela-3, in service since the mid 80's.
The two man team should come with EQ2081 trucks, tracked ZSD63 APC, tracked ZSD89 APC, wheeled ZSL92A APC, ZSL92 IFV, ZBD86 BMP-1 and variants, ZSD90 IFV, Z-5 Helo and Z-9 Helo.

Type 81 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC6
HN-5B MANPAD - Range 2275m/1820m, ACC10, HE4
speed: 13 km/h
cost: 10
Avail: 12 in two cards, coming as Trained

前卫 QW-1 / Vanguard-1 MANPAD:

The QW-1 is a Chinese MANPAD missile based on both Igla and Stinger technologies. It is in service since the early 90's and will probably be a prototype in the game.
The two man team should come with EQ2081 trucks, tracked ZSD63 APC, tracked ZSD89 APC, wheeled ZSL92A APC, ZSL92 IFV, ZBD86 BMP-1 and variants, ZSD90 IFV, Z-5 Helo and Z-9 Helo.

Type 81 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC6
HN-5B MANPAD - Range 2450m/1960m, ACC10, HE5
speed: 13 km/h
cost: 15
Avail: 8 in one card, coming as Trained

Scout Infantry

Another category where the PLA can play out their strenghts, that is both numbers and guerilla traditions.

轻兵 Qīng bīng / Light Infantry:

In the jungles of Southern China, where both mechanized and motorized troops cant perform well in the complex terrain, locally recruited light infantry troops make up the bulk of the PLA contigent there.
Especially in the tropical border regions to Burma, Laos and Vietnam, all hotspots during that time, the PLA depends on the light infantry troops to bear the brunt of all combat missions. Especially in the Sino-Vietnamese Wars of 1979 through the mid 1980's, the Light Infantry of Southern China were the mainstay of the PLA combat forces deployed in the conflicts.
They are organized like regular PLA line-infantry (since they replace the PLA motorized/mechanized troops in the southern military regions), but are additionally trained for jungle combat and reconnaissance. These troops are known for using the cumbersome but dependable Type 78 82mm anti-tank recoilless rifle instead of RPGs and ATGMs.
They come with EQ2081 trucks only.

Type 81 7.62x39 Rifle - ACC6 (no RoF boost)
Type 78 82mm Recoilless Rifle - Range 875m, ACC10, AP15
Type-67-2 7.62x54 GPMG - ACC8 (STAT)
Speed: 27 km/h
Price: 25 pts
Optics: Very Good
Avail: 8 in two cards, come as Trained

猎人 Liè rén / Hunter:

The "hunter" troops are, simply put, the PLA equivalent to the US Rangers or W-German Fernspäher. They are long-range reconnaissance troops that continue the proud PLA tradition of having a strong scout corps.
Compared to the Light Infantry, they are fewer in number because they are considered to be Special Forces, enjoy better equipment and training, as well as a high esprit de corps. "Hunters" and "Sharp Swords" are almost interchangable, since both of them recruit from each other all the time, while having similiar missions to perform.
As such, they should come with EQ2081 trucks, wheeled ZSL92A APC, Z-5 Helo, Z-9 Helo, S-70C-2 Black Hawk.

Type 64 7.62x25 silenced SMG - ACC9 (SF RoF boost)
Type 69 85mm RPG - ACC8, AP14
NDM-79 7.62x54 (Dragunov pattern) sniper rifle - ACC18
Speed: 33 km/h
Price: 25 pts
Optics: Very Good
Avail: 8 in one card, come as Veteran

Spoiler : :

Dongfeng EQ2081 ... -truck.asp

A simple truck that is in widespread service since 1975, replacing the previous and iconic "Jiefang" trucks (based on the soviet ZIS and ZIL series).

Tracked APC:

ZSD-63: ... l_carrier) ... c-1.jpg|||

Very simple, tracked APC, not unlike the M113, lightly armored and armed with a 12.7x108mm Type 54 HMG (DShK clone). Mass produced WZ531A variant In service since 1968. The vehicle has limited amphibious capability.
IRL speed is 65km/h, can carry up to 15 men including crew.
In game speed should be 65 km/h as well
I'd say that this one is our standard bread and butter 5 pt transport.

ZSD-63-II ... 1f5861.jpg ... 946041.jpg ... 085c58.jpg

An upgrade of the ZSD63, different designations are WZ531G/YW531G. Improvements are better armor, the characteristic machine gun shield, two additional roof hatches and uprated engines. In service since 1982. Speed remains 65 km/h. In game, i'd give it an all-round armor of 1, while the previous variant might just have armor 1 at the front.

Type-77-I (Amphibious) ... l_carrier)

Derived from the Type 63 amphibious light tank. Kinda like a Chinese BTR-50. It's the standard transport for the PLA Marines.
IRL speed is 60 km/h.

ZSD-63C (Amphibious) ... bious1.jpg ... 946037.jpg

ZSD-63-II with modification to enhance its amphibious capability, making it suitable for coastal assault. Used by the PLA Marine Corps and the Amphibious Mechanized Infantry.
Speed and armor is the same as with the ZSD-63-II.

ZSD-89 ... 2b5698.jpg ... d89_01.jpg

Essentially a stretched ZSD-63-II with larger interior and the mainstay tracked APC of the PLA today. Weapon remained the same, though armor was improved, which now can withstand 12.7mm rounds. The limited amphibious capability was also improved over the previous ZSD63 series. I'd give it a speed of 70km/h and some bit more armor for game's sake, while a higher price than both ZSD63 and ZSD63-II.

Tracked IFV:


Based on the chassis of the ZSD-89 tracked APC. It has a single man turret with a powerful Swiss 25mm autocannon (25x137 NATO - same as the Bushmaster!) and a coaxial 7.62x54mm Type-67 MG. It has reduced carrying capacity of seven men. It retains the limited amphibious capability of its APC variant. In game terms, its strong weaponry would put it into the realm of a high-tier transport. So, basically a slower LAV-25.
IRL speed is 65 km/h.


Clone of the BMP-1 in service in the mid-late 80's. As it is produced in the 80s, its HJ-73 ATGM (Chinese Malyutka clone) should be the B variant that is a combined SACLOS guidance with MCLOS backup. Speed is 65 km/h.

ZBD-86B (Amphibious)

The ZBD-86 IFV with a front wave fence and an external boat motor to improve its swimming performance. Used by the PLA Marines.

ZSD-86-I/WZ-505 ... wz505.html

IFV based on the ZBD-86 chassis, armed with a 25mm KBA Autocannon in a single man turret, just like with the ZSD-90. No ATGMs. Produced in low numbers.
Speed remains 65 km/h.

Wheeled APC:

Type 90/WZ-523

Did not enter service, but fits our timeline, as it was unveiled in the military parade of 1984. A 6X6 APC armed with a Type 85 HMG (comparable with NSVT), it was not deemed satisfactory by the PLA, forcing Norinco to go back to the drawing boards. In our case, it is conceivable that it would have been rushed into service if war broke out, so let's just go with that.
Speed is 80 km/h.


The lightly armed APC variant of the ZSL-92 IFV.
Its immediate predecessor, known as WZ-523 and Type 90 APC, was first shown in the 1984 military parade, as stated above. IRL that variant was not mass-produced, because the PLA was not satisfied with its design and Norinco returned to the drawing board to fix its issues, producing the successful ZSL-92 IFV that only was introduced in the PLA in 1995/97. Maybe prototype this one.
Pretty much a Chinese Fuchs of some sort, it is 6X6 and offers good IRL road speeds of 90 km/h and sufficient protection against small arms. Weapon is a 12.7mm Type 85 HMG.

Wheeled IFV:


The WZ551, the predecessor of this wheeled IFV, was produced in the mid 1980s, but the PLA was not satisfied with its initial design. The actual in service variant of the ZSL-92 was introduced in 1995, but there are few differences, so this variant could have been rushed into service in our time-line. Or as a prototype.
The weapon is the ZPT-90 25mm Autogun (some sources say it is a French GIAT 25mm Model 811, others say that it evolved from the KBA and Bushmaster M242, all weapons that were imported into China for previous IFV projects). The armor is rather light and only good against small arms fire. All in all, this would be China's LAV-25 equivalent.
IRL Speed is 85 km/h

Transport Helicopters

Harbin Z-5

A Chinese clone of the Mil Mi-4, in service since 1960 and in large numbers. Fitted with a gunner gondola.

Harbin Z-9

In service since the early 80s. The licence copy of the AS 365N Dauphin II. Not armed in reality, but for the game sake, it could be armed with a Type 67-2 7.62x54 GPMG for the door gunner.
Speed is 305 km/h.

Changhe Z-8

Chinese copy of the French SA 321 Super Frelon, in PLA Navy service since 1989. Weapons would be a door-gunner manning a Type 85 12.7mm HMG.
Speed is about 250 km/h

S-70C Black Hawk

China imported a number of S-70C Black Hawks from the US in the 80s. They are very capable birds that are still very well liked in the PLA.
They would be assigned to special operations forces only, due to their limited numbers and high capability. They are unarmed IRL, but for the game, any 12.7mm door gun would do.
Speed is 280 km/h

Spoiler : :
A definite Chinese strenght. The PLA has a giant artillery corps consisting of over 27.000 artillery guns (most of them towed, though) and is known for operating several artillery divisions during that time.
From the massive artillery attacks during the 1st Taiwan strait crisis in the 50's, over the "ritual-shelling" of Kinmen and Matsu, two Replublic of China (ROC/Taiwan) possessed islands just off the coast of mainland China in the 60's, to the area bombardment during the sino-vietnamese war of the late 70's to late 80's, the artillery has always played an important role in the PLA strategy. In the 70's-80's, mechanization also reached the artillery troops and China began with the widespread modernization of this service, beginning with simple modifications such as mounting their towed artillery pieces on tracked APC vehicles, to producing dedicated self propelled artillery guns and rocket launchers.
With the acquisition of the groundbreaking Canadian GC-45 artillery gun technology in the 80's, China also possessed the capability to produce high-performance self propelled artillery systems in the same league the best the NATO and the Pact could offer.

Mortar Carriers

Traditionally, China used no mortar carriers and relied on Mortar-teams transported in their tracked and wheeled APCs instead.
But since Wargame cannot portray mortar teams, I guess we should just go with China's export mortar carriers instead.

YW-304 82mm Mortar Carrier

A ZSD-63 APC with a hole in the roof. Equipped with a 82mm Mortar and a Type 54 DShK HMG.
Speed is same as the ZSD-63 (65km/h), range of the mortar is around 3km IRL.

YW-381 120mm Mortar Carrier ... 667bd2.jpg

ZSD-63 APC with a PP64 120mm mortar and a Type 54 DShK HMG. IRL range is 7.7km and speed of the vehicle is the same.

Self Propelled Howitzers

PLZ-70 122mm

A very primitive SPH, combining the ubiquitous ZSD-63 APC with the obsolete Type 54-1 122mm Howitzer (Soviet WWII era M-30). It served the PLA in the late 60's and early 70's as a stopgap measure.
Range of the gun is 11.8km, there are no fire-controls at all and the speed of the carrier is slowed down to 56 km/h. Protection against small arms fire exists, but since the roof is open and the seven man crew is exposed, I wouldnt count on any kind of actual survivability.

PLZ-83 152mm

In service since the early 80's, this SPH is China's late answer to the Soviet 2S3 Akatsiya and NATO M109. It is armed with a Type-66 152mm Howitzer (D-20 pattern) and has a range up to 17.5 km, with a maximum fire-rate of 6 rounds per minute, and fire-controls are not bad and compatible with laser-guided rounds that were in service in the 90's. A Type 54 HMG is included and the armor is made of steel and not aluminium alloy, unlike the M109, which would raise its protection level. Speed is 55 km/h.
This SPH was in limited service and also just as a stopgap until the more modern 155mm PLZ-45 arrived.

PLZ-89 122mm

A 122mm medium howitzer, that is in service in the late 90's, but prototypes were available since the mid 80's. Armed with the W86 122mm/32 caliber gun (D-30 pattern), it has a range of 18 km with a max RoF of 8 rounds per minute. Road speed is 60km/h. Type 54 HMG included.

PLZ-45 155mm

Produced in the late 80's till early 90's, this brand new artillery piece uses, for the first time, the NATO 155mm caliber.
Reason for that is China's successful acquisition of the very capable Canadian GC-45 artillery gun, which outranges and outperforms every previous artillery gun in Chinese service. The PLZ-45 is a truly modern Self Propelled Howitzer armed with the powerful GC-45 155mm 45 caliber Howitzer that has a range of 30km. It is fully enclosed and protected. A Type 85 HMG is externally mounted. Speed is 55 km/h.


WZ303 130mm MRLS ... ne_640.jpg ... ne_002.jpg

A 130mm 19-tube MRLS mounted on a ZSD-63 APC. Range is 10km and vehicle speed is 60km/h. In service since the 70's. The shorter 130mm rocket is not as powerful as the long 122mm rocket of the BM-21 Grad, but potentially cheaper. This could be a cheap and plentiful MRLS for our resident arty spammers here.

PHL-82 130mm MRLS

A 30 tube 130mm MRLS mounted on a 6x6 truck. Range and power is the same as above.

PHL-81 122mm MRLS

China's BM-21 Grad equivalent. 40 tube 122mm MRLS, range is 20km.

PHZ-122mm tracked MRLS

In service since 1986, this 40-tube 122mm MRLS is based on a tracked armored utility chassis and features an autoloader with another 40 rockets in storage, allowing it two consecutive barrages after as few as 3 minutes IRL. Certainly an interesting MRLS for W:RD.
It also has a Type 54 HMG and is armored. Speed is 55 km/h.

WM-40 273mm MRLS ... 3_mlrs.htm

A tracked MRLS mounting a four-tube 273mm MRLS, in service since the early 80's.
It's rocket has 40 km range, and the tracked vehicle's speed is 60 km/h.
Since it only has four tubes, I'd envision this MRLS as the "poor-man's Smerch", giving it a lower price and more availabilty or something.

Helicopters (A big thank you to Breadbox)


Spoiler : :
Even though the Chinese Airforce during that time (1980s to 1990s) was mostly obsolete and among the weakest arm of the PLA, one should not forget that the PLAAF and PLANAF (PLA Naval Aviation - land-based only at that time due to no aircraft carriers) still is a very very large force that can be a fairly dangerous foe due to the quantity of their combat aircrafts alone.

Fighters and Multirole

The PRC has a lot of fighters: During the height of the cold war, China has had more than three thousand J-6/MiG-19s, two-thousand J-7/MiG-21 and thousands of other older aircrafts. Even though obsolete by mnodern standards, the MiG-19 and MiG-21 derivates were still dangerous dog-fighters, especially when equipped with the newer, western imported/reverse-engineered short range AA missiles, like the PL-8/Israeli Python-3, compatible with the more advanced J-7 variants, that feature their iconic double-delta wing-layout giving them a very high maneuverbility.
In the late 70s and 80s, China also began with the research of more modern types of fighter aircrafts, with some of them coming to fruition despite the very low technological and industrial base of that time.
Overall, the Chinese airforce during that time was relying more on their massive fleet of agile but short ranged dog-fighters, supported by not-so-agile high speed interceptors to gain local air-superiority in support of the ground troops.

Shenyang/Guizhou J-6A Farmer ... -J-6+2.jpg ... -J-6+1.jpg

The venerable J-6 was China's mainstay fighter during that time. China was a very enthusiastic user of the supersonic MiG-19 and hence has had a larger fleet of those than even the Soviets themselves. Production started in 1958 and never ended until 1981, and this aircraft took part in many conflicts and combat missions during the Taiwan Strait crisis (dogfights vs ROCAF F-104s), during the Vietnam War (even with confirmed shootdowns of several US aircrafts that ventured into Chinese territory) and the Sino-USSR border conflicts. The initial gun-only J-6A was upgraded to the J-6A by Guizhou Aircraft Company in the late 70s, enabling them to load up to four IR-homing PL-2 SRAAMs (K-13 AA-2 "Atoll"). The further improved PL-2B was the main PL-2 variant during the timeframe of this game, and its capabilities are equivalent to that of the K-13M, which would be the most likely loadout of this fighter jet.
In game terms, I'd suggest the same - three 30mm NR-30 guns and four PL-2B/K-13M IR-AAM. A cheap and really plentiful low-tier dogfighter for China.

(Even nowadays the PLAAF is using hundreds of J-6 fighters - as unmanned, remote controled Kamikaze drones designated as "B-6", loaded with iron-bombs and aviation fuel. Some of them have their cockpits removed completely and replaced with satellite navigation and datalink systems, enabling them to be used in large swarms to overwhelm enemy air-defenses and to committ mass kamikaze attacks vs enemy bases and aircraft carriers. Those are outside the time-frame though, but still a nice funfact to know)

Chengdu J-7II/J-7B ... j7_03large

The first J-7/MiG-21 produced in significant numbers. China received the technology transfer from the USSR for the MiG-21F-13 in 1961, but wasnt able to produce the J-7 in any satisfying quality and quantity until the late 70s with the J-7II/J-7B. This type could be equipped with up to two PL-2B or two rocket pods/250/500kg iron-bombs and has two integral NR-30 30mm cannons in each wing-root, a main distinction compared to the original MiG-21F-13 Fishbed-C, which only had one. I'd suggest something along the lines of the East German MiG-21MF, equipped with two AAM, a pair of rocket pods/or 250/500 bombs and the pair of cannons as a cheap multirole fighter jet.

Chengdu J-7C ... j7_07large ... j7_08large

Beginning with the predecessor J-7III/J-7C, China in the late 70s attempted to adress the problem of their lack of all-weather/night-fighters with the reverse-engineering of the MiG-21MF Fishbed-D that they aquired via Egypt, that was equipped with a medium range fire-control radar (the J-7B only had a short range search and ranging radar). The first flight was in 1984, and the actual production run of this type was quite low because it was already obsolete as a dedicated night fighter compared to even the other Chinese aircrafts like the J-8II when it arrived. It still served with a Chinese dedicated night-fighter regiment, though.

The J-7C can be equipped with up to four PL-5 series missiles (improved missile based on the PL-2; production variant is the PL-5B equivalent to the AIM-9G in performance, and the mainstay version in the 80s was the PL-5C equivalent to the AIM-9L) or 250/500 free-fall iron bombs and 57mm, 90mm or 130mm rocket launcher pods.
In game terms I'd suggest it to be a multi-role as well. Maybe give it a larger caliber rocket pod (90mm or 130mm)/larger bomb (500kg) and two PL-5Cs to make it the more expensive and capable alternative to the J-7II/B.

Chengdu J-7E

Parallel to the not so successful J-7C based on the MiG-21PF/MF, China also developed a significant upgrade on base of the more successful J-7II in 1987. The J-7E was the result, which features its iconic and actually uniquely Chinese double-delta wing, giving it superior maneuverbility. It is also equipped with the imported British GEC-Marconi Super Skyranger radar (making it night/all-weather capable, albeit only for short ranges) and Helmet Mounted Sight system, closely associated with the very capable Sino-Israeli PL-8/Python-3 SRAAM, which is this plane's standard AAM. The J-7E served alongside the J-7B as the mainstay dogfighters of the chinese airforce. It is also understood that this variant (along with the post 2000s J-7G based on the J-7E) is among the most capable of the venerable MiG-21 family - it is designed and built with late 80's to early 90's technologies and thus offers siginificant performance boosts compared to earlier MiG-21 derivates. It performed rather successfully in the export market as well, because of that.
In game terms, I'd suggest to give the J-7E four PL-8 IR-Homing SRAAMs (stats equivalent to the AIM-9M) which makes this little dogfighter a highly capable but affordable option for the player to hunt helicopters and ambush enemy bombers and interceptors with.

Shenyang J-8I/J-8A ... -APA-1.jpg ... ighter.jpg

The Shenyang J-8I Finback-A was the first chinese attempt to design and build an indigenous fighter/interceptor aircraft. Initial plans was for a long-range radar equipped and BVR missile armed high-speed and high-altitute interceptor in the line of the MiG-25 to meet the threat of high altitute US bombers and spy-planes. But these plans had to be shelved for quite some time after encountering technological bottlenecks and the political chaos of the cultural revolution. As such, the basic J-8 that was introduced in 1981 (ten years later than initially planned) and looked like an enlarged, twin-engined MiG-21 with nose intake and only equipped with a ranging radar. Despite this, the J-8I was still a high-speed and high-alt interceptor that could perform some of the envisioned jobs. It served the PLAAF in low numbers.
Its four pylons can be equipped with PL-5C missiles or iron-bombs. In game terms, since it wouldnt be any superior to the PL-5C equipped J-7C, I'd suggest to give it some speed boost of 1100km/h (like the MiG-31) to represent its high-speed interceptor role. Equipped with two 500kg iron-bombs two PL-5C and its integral twin 30mm Type 30-1 cannons, it would be a very interesting, useful and unique high-speed multirole bomb-truck for sure...

Shenyang J-8II Block 02/J-8B ... 5large.jpg

The performance requirements of the PLAAF for the J-8 were partitially realized with the J-8II/B interceptor. Its production variant is the block 2, which even though featured an improved radar was still not able to give it the BVR capability the Chinese airforce desired so much. But avionics improvements allowed it to mount up to four of the capable PL-8 short range missile, as well as bombs. The twin 30mm guns were replaced with the Type 23-III (a copy of the twin barreled Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23L). I'd suggest it to be either a better/more expensive J-8A with better SRAAM or replace the J-8A and take over its role as high speed multirole bomb-truck instead.

J-8C/J-8II Peace Pearl ... ii_04large

During the 1980's Sino-US honeymoon the US Reagan administration approved a joint US-China upgrade-project of at least 55 J-8IIs in 1986. Two J-8IIs were sent to the US to undergo upgrade in 1989 and were flown in the USAF Air Force Test Centre at the Edwards Air Force Base. Those two were returned to China afterwards and the project cancelled because of the arms embargo enacted due to the Tiananmen Square Incident.
This J-8II variant would have been a very capable fighter if the project wasnt cancelled, as the "Peace Pearl" was equipped with the powerful AN/APG-66(V) radar which would have allowed it to launch the AIM-7 derived PL-11 semi-active radar homing medium range BVRAAM, and modern self-defense ECM systems.
As the J-8II Peace Pearl was cancelled, the Chinese themselves continued to use some technologies aquired from that project in the J-8III/J-8C, with two of them built in 1991 and test flown in 1993. It was equipped with the Israeli Elta EL/M 2035 multi-mode pulse-doppler radar instead and was equipped with PL-11 (infact, the missile was first tested onboard the J-8C). But since the J-11/Su-27SK deal with Russia was negotiated at that time, and import imminent, as well as the J-10 project ongoing, the J-8C was cancelled in the mid 90s.

In the game, I'd suggest to include the J-8C in RD, since it would be China's only BVR/medium range missile capable fighter aircraft in that time-frame. Maybe as prototype. Possible loadout would be either four PL-11 or two PL-8 and two PL-11 AAMs (and the twin-barreled 23mm gun), giving China their F-4F ICE or Czech MiG-21bis like medium-range-missile interceptor.

Attack and SEAD

Chinese ground attack aircraft fleet consist mainly the small, supersonic, numerous (and iconic) Q-5 "Fantan" attacker and the sluggish but heavily armed JH-7 "Flounder" fighter bomber, that also takes over the SEAD roles.

Nanchang Q-5I and Q-5IA ... q5_05large ... _38402.jpg (nice arsenal pciture - showing 90 and 130mm rocket and pods, different 250 and 500kg bombs, CBUs etc)

The "Fantan" is an unique and extensive modification based on the MiG-19 produced in very large numbers (around 1300 copies). It featured a solid nose housing ground attack optimized avionics, is well armoured for its small size and has six pylons for free-ball bombs and rockets, while retaining its supersonic speed of Mach 1.12. All around, a very useful little attacker that is still being used today in the PLAAF in a more advanced variant. The main improved production and in-service variants replacing the original Q-5 during the time-frame of RD would be the Q-5I and Q-5IA, both having eight pylons instead of six, the capability to use PL-2 missiles. Fixed armament would be two single barrel NR-30 30mm guns, one each in either one wing-root, chambered with armour piercing rounds, which would make this small plane a good CAS asset.

In the game I'd suggest to put all Q-5 variants in one tree, distinguished by their loadout and ECM level (for the Q-5D described below).
Possible configuration setups would be (while retaining its armour piercing twin 30mm guns):
- Two PL-2B AAMs and four/six 250kg iron bombs (Type-250-2, chinese copy of the Mk82 Snake Eye low drag bomb)
- Four Type-90-1 seven round 90mm rocket pods
- Two PL-2B and four/six Type-250-3 (CBU Mk 20 Rockeye copy) 250kg anti-armor Cluster bombs: ... luster.asp
- Two PL-2B and two Type-500-2 500kg bombs
- Two PL-2B and two four-round pods of 130mm rockets:

Note that the Q-5 is a purpose made ground attack plane, and as such it actually features AAA resistant armor platings - so I suggest to give it an all around armor value of 1.
Also note that the Q-5 retains its Mach 1.12 supersonic speed IRL, so in game terms I'd suggest it to have at least a speed of 800 to 900km/h. A very powerful ground attack plane indeed, but one that is limited by its short range due to its low fuel load.

Nanchang Q-5D ... /q5_06.jpg (Q-5D with prototype LT-2 500kg LGB)

The first major "Fantan" update that was fielded in substancial numbers. The Q-5D included technologies learned and absorbed from the earlier Sino-Italian Q-5M and Sino-French Q-5K, especially in terms of fire-control and ECM systems. It was equipped with the ALR-1 Laser rangefinder/Marked Target seeker, giving it the ability to perform precision strike as well (there are pictures confirming that the Q-5D is capable of carrying the LT-2 500kg LGBs that look similiar to the KAB-500L). Especially latter would be an interesting weapon choice for a prototype Q-5D setup, that also would be within time-frame, as the PLAAF is known to have tested their prototype LT-2 LGBs in the 80s via Q-5D bombers, even though the first "real and official" LGB capable Q-5E was introduced way later in 2007.
It's main outwards distinction was its new green or camo paint scheme.
In game, I'd suggest to give this aircraft "Medium" ECM and at least one loadout setup of two SALH LT-2 500kg LGBs, making it China's premiere precision strike aircraft filling the gap in China's non-existing guided air-to-ground missile arsenal. To balance this, it could be made so that the Q-5D must survive for the bombs to hit the targets accurately since it is a Semi Active Laser Homing Missile after all. So no Nighthawking with this one, also due to its non-estistant stealth value. Price should be adjusted as well...

Xi'an JH-7 ... _start.jpg ... AAF-1S.jpg ... 4%2529.jpg ... F%2529.jpg

The JH-7 Flounder made by the Xi'an Aircraft Company in the late 1980s is China's mainstay maritime strike bomber replacing the obsolete H-5/IL-28 Beagle. It has its first flight in 1988 and was introduced in 1992, which makes it barely fitting in our timeline. But since the Chinese faction can just rely on the Q-5 for ground attack, SEAD (and possible maritime strikes featured in RD), I guess we definitely should have this plane included.
The JH-7 Flounder resembles the Jaguar, but is larger and has a tandem seat arrangement. It is more in the class of the Tornado, being able to carry a substancial amount of guided and unguided ordnance. It has a twin-barreled Type 23-2 23mm gun and can have PL-5 AAMs for self-defense. It has 9 hardpoints, with two for AAM and six usable for heavy AG munitions.

In game, I'd suggest it being equipped with up to four YJ-81/C-801 or YJ-82/C-802 anti-ship missiles for maritime strike (they were in service since the mid-late 80s), up to six Type 500-2 500kg or two Type 1500-2 1500kg iron bombs for strike missions, up to six BL-755 450kg CBUs for heavy anti-tank attacks.
For SEAD, the JH-7 would be equipped with jamming pods and FL-7 (reverse engineered AGM-45 Shrike obtained via North Vietnam) ARMs, or YJ-5 ARMs based on the AIM-7/PL-11 body but with performance roughly equivalent to the AGM-78 Standard (again reverse engineered via unexploded samples supplied by North Vietnam). Both of these ARMs were in limited service during the 80's and early 90's and would fit our timeline. ... 535611.jpg (FL-7 ARM - the YJ-5 looks similiar, as it is also based on the same missile body)

Your opinions and discussions please!
Last edited by H-J on Wed 2 Oct 2013 00:19, edited 23 times in total.

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby chema1994 » Sun 1 Sep 2013 00:45

Interesting post. I don't know a lot about chinese technology so I cannot help. But good work explaining chinese tanks in the era.

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby D-M » Sun 1 Sep 2013 01:01

An interesting read, need more pictures thought.

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Tac Error » Sun 1 Sep 2013 01:17

I have a list I made back in February with slightly differing info, but I didn't extend to the 1990s: ... sp=sharing

I shall leave the discussion of in-game statistics to others. ;)

"Large mechanized forces always defeat small mechanized forces." - M. N. Tukhachevsky

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby H-J » Sun 1 Sep 2013 01:32

Tac Error wrote:I have a list I made back in February with slightly differing info, but I didn't extend to the 1990s: ... sp=sharing

I shall leave the discussion of in-game statistics to others. ;)

this one is great!

thanks for posting.

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Bryan » Sun 1 Sep 2013 02:26

Yes I have played Battlefield 2

Would be awesome.
Also didn't China have a VAB Mephisto clone?

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby H-J » Sun 1 Sep 2013 02:50

Bryan wrote:HJ-8 ATGM :D
Yes I have played Battlefield 2

Would be awesome.
Also didn't China have a VAB Mephisto clone?

HJ-8 and variants are a given. Their 800-1000mm RHA penetration is necessary and a must-have for every Chinese deck.

China indeed has a Mephisto-clone, designated as ZSL92B (although armed with the heavier and more powerful laser beam riding HJ-9, which entered service in 1992 and should thus be a prototype:, and a earier prototype designated as WZ91 armed with the HJ-8 SACLOS ATGM.

I guess I will research for chinese infantry and transports tomorrow. I"ll update the first post accordingly.

And suggestions?

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Killertomato » Sun 1 Sep 2013 03:09

I think aircraft would be a little easier to work up than transports and infantry, myself. ;)

Darn good explanation of Chinese armor, though- can't wait to use all these super-fancy T-55 derivatives in-game.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Breadbox » Sun 1 Sep 2013 07:24

This is an excellent thread.Please do work on other catergories!
I may even begin to work on my own on other catergories!

Tac error you should consider the most glorious and unique variant of the Type86 IFV :mrgreen:
This is Type-86G with 30mm auto-canon and Hj-73(B?) atgm.
Most likely a few years out of timeframe.But i strongly believe this should be included following the lights of IFVs like Strf9040 and Vildkat.

I could not imagine the horrors of the lack of Prototype Ztz98 in the game,Scandinavia disaster all over again.
However,i"m even more concerned with the complete lack of long range radar Sam within the timeframe.
Hopefully the devs will see beyond the deamonic timeframe they self-imposed and give

QianWei1 manpads(similiar capabilities to Iglas)
Hq-64(truck mounted mid range radar Sam)

It is also worth noting that the Armed variants of the Harbin (W)Z-9 is also well within timeframe.
Capable of carrying weapons other than the stated HJ-8 atgm.
Weapons that can be mounted
-Ty-90 air to air missles
-57mm/90mm Rocket pods
-Twin 23mm auto canon
(orginal link didn't work :? )
Its like what Mi-2 is to Poland
Last edited by Breadbox on Sun 1 Sep 2013 11:20, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Chinese Units in Wargame Red Dragon

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Sun 1 Sep 2013 08:19

H-J wrote:So, with the People's Republic of China confirmed, let us talk about possible units of the mighty PLA that could appear in the game, which are within the time-frame till 1991.

Interesting post. :)

My main question is about naming, for we are actually banging our heads against walls with Chinese equipments being all named 'Type XX' whatever the vehicle (if I recall, there are three Type 64 vehicles, one tank, one SPAAG and one APC), or someone suggested naming them '89 Tank' ...
Where does the ZTZ-59 (and other)'s denomination comes from? And is it really fitting?

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