I wish and long for Relative Missile values

User avatar
KittyKitsune
Captain
Posts: 1716
Joined: Thu 23 Feb 2012 22:43
Contact:

I wish and long for Relative Missile values

Postby KittyKitsune » Tue 16 Sep 2014 07:23

Something that bothers me a little bit is that the konkurs-M, Ataka, and Kokon-M all in real life has the same estimated penetration value of 800mm RHA. However in game Konkurs-M is 25 ap and Ataka and Kokon-M is 22 ap.

So what i would like is a bit more consistant and relative to each missiles.

For example, let's take TOW missile as a base value, since it's also helicopter borne.


BGM-71B TOW
It has 430mm penetration IRL, and 15 AP ingame

BGM-71C I-TOW
It has 630mm penetration IRL, that is 43% more than TOW so it would have 21 AP ingame

And then the TOW-2 having 42% better penetration than I-Tow would have 30 AP. Well that's a bit much.
So let's reduce base level TOW value.
And then let's some missiles relative to each other.


BGM-71B TOW 430mm RHA = AP 15 -> 13
BGM-71C I-TOW 630mm RHA = AP 20 -> 19
BGM-71D TOW-2 900mm RHA = AP 26 -> 26

Kokon 570mm RHA = AP 20 -> 17
Kokon-M 800mm RHA = AP 22 -> 24
Ataka 800mm RHA = AP 22 -> 24
Konkurs 600mm RHA = AP 20 -> 18
Konkurs-M 800mm RHA = AP 23 -> 24

AGM-114A Hellfire - bit of a wildcard here, since penetration is secret, but since the warhead is 8KG and the Kokon-M and Ataka warhead is 7.9KG I don't see why the hellfire would have more AP than those, would it really hurt anyone if the Hellfire had the same AP at 24?

I could do the rest of the hot missiles and stuff, pretty sure there are some lists of real life values of these already, (like the one i made :P)

Does using the Basic tow at 13 AP not give nice values, and actually makes the missiles much more worth the upgrade just like in real life?
Last edited by KittyKitsune on Tue 16 Sep 2014 09:14, edited 1 time in total.
Image
SUFNEP - Superior Unit For No Extra Points
WUWME - Worse Unit While More Expensive

Cyk0
Second-Lieutenant
Posts: 988
Joined: Thu 19 Jul 2012 09:28
Contact:

Re: I wish and long for Relative Missile values

Postby Cyk0 » Tue 16 Sep 2014 07:48

I guess the hidden balance factor here is not AP only, but range as well. The konkurs is long range for an infantry carried ATGM and the pact helicopter (and ground vehicle) based ATGMs mentioned are long ranged as well. (And with som TGMS are helped further by stabilizers an an armored carrier)

I suspect theyhold back the high end ones in order to not make superheavies extinct, while a buf to the lower AP ones helps minors deal with stuff such as m11p spam without being totally outclassed.

(note that does not explain the longbow and its deadlines)

User avatar
Regnar
Lieutenant
Posts: 1159
Joined: Mon 25 Aug 2014 19:41
Location: Islamic State of Donetsk and Luhansk

Re: I wish and long for Relative Missile values

Postby Regnar » Tue 16 Sep 2014 08:00

The Hellfire has more AP than the Ataka and Kokon-M, because, unlike them, it's a top-attack missile.

User avatar
BeyondNight
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 2064
Joined: Fri 7 Jun 2013 20:33
Location: The Depths
Contact:

Re: I wish and long for Relative Missile values

Postby BeyondNight » Tue 16 Sep 2014 08:28

Regnar wrote:The Hellfire has more AP than the Ataka and Kokon-M, because, unlike them, it's a top-attack missile.


Yea 8Kg vs top armor or 7.9Kg against frontal.... wonder who will be more destructive :lol:

IIRC even today anything short of a Laser-Jammer or Hardkill APS wont stop it from obliterating the vehicle it hits.
Spoiler : :
Image

User avatar
KittyKitsune
Captain
Posts: 1716
Joined: Thu 23 Feb 2012 22:43
Contact:

Re: I wish and long for Relative Missile values

Postby KittyKitsune » Tue 16 Sep 2014 08:39

Regnar wrote:The Hellfire has more AP than the Ataka and Kokon-M, because, unlike them, it's a top-attack missile.


Image

Do you think it works like this?
Image
SUFNEP - Superior Unit For No Extra Points
WUWME - Worse Unit While More Expensive

User avatar
Yakhont
Colonel
Posts: 2870
Joined: Sat 31 Mar 2012 04:33
Contact:

Re: I wish and long for Relative Missile values

Postby Yakhont » Tue 16 Sep 2014 08:44

Actually

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/agm-114.htm

Maybe the speed of the Hellfire should be nerfed for following such a long flight path :D

Or AP nerfed for not following this flight path.
Image

User avatar
Azaz3l
Brigadier
Posts: 3295
Joined: Sat 1 Oct 2011 10:38
Location: Bus 410
Contact:

Re: I wish and long for Relative Missile values

Postby Azaz3l » Tue 16 Sep 2014 09:11

Konkurs-M is 23 AP btw. The thing is that Konkurs-M and Ataka had tandem warheads to defeat ERA, meanwhile TOW-2 had a single warhead with greater penetration. Both Ataka and Konkurs-M should get 24AP imo with TOW-2 still having superior penetration, but by not that much. Konkon-M (aka Shturm-VM) could use 23 AP since it had inferior penetration to Ataka and Konkurs-M (720mm and tandem warhead)
Image

Nequit
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu 21 Mar 2013 00:42
Contact:

Re: I wish and long for Relative Missile values

Postby Nequit » Tue 16 Sep 2014 09:17

KittyKitsune wrote:
Regnar wrote:The Hellfire has more AP than the Ataka and Kokon-M, because, unlike them, it's a top-attack missile.


Image

Do you think it works like this?

No, because for safety reasons attack helicopters are flying as low as possible.

User avatar
Graphic
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 10588
Joined: Mon 30 Apr 2012 10:18
Location: Battle Born
Contact:

Re: I wish and long for Relative Missile values

Postby Graphic » Tue 16 Sep 2014 09:39

KittyKitsune wrote:
Regnar wrote:The Hellfire has more AP than the Ataka and Kokon-M, because, unlike them, it's a top-attack missile.


Image

Do you think it works like this?


More like this

Image

Regardless of the MURICA STRONG EVIL COMMUNISM jokes/implications of bias you'd like to make, there's a significant difference.
k

User avatar
KittyKitsune
Captain
Posts: 1716
Joined: Thu 23 Feb 2012 22:43
Contact:

Re: I wish and long for Relative Missile values

Postby KittyKitsune » Tue 16 Sep 2014 09:39

Azaz3l wrote:Konkurs-M is 23 AP btw. The thing is that Konkurs-M and Ataka had tandem warheads to defeat ERA, meanwhile TOW-2 had a single warhead with greater penetration. Both Ataka and Konkurs-M should get 24AP imo with TOW-2 still having superior penetration, but by not that much. Konkon-M (aka Shturm-VM) could use 23 AP since it had inferior penetration to Ataka and Konkurs-M (720mm and tandem warhead)


Well I just off the listed wiki penetrations just now :P

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I have a more thorough list of missile stats i made a while ago for a different discussion.

here are some more relative values.

Malyutka 400mm = AP 13 -> 12
Malyutka P 460mm = AP 15 -> 14
Faktoriya 460mm = AP 16 -> 14
Fagot 400mm = AP 13 -> 12
Metis 550mm = AP 15 -> 17
Metis-M 950mm = AP 26 -> 29

Also correction on the TOW 2 should be 27 AP

Eryx 900mm = AP 25 -> 27
Milan F2 353mm = AP 24 -> 11 (Before anyone rages at Milan penetration, bear in mind that the entire milan missile, actually weighs less than just the warhead of a kokon-m, http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0040.html)
Image
SUFNEP - Superior Unit For No Extra Points
WUWME - Worse Unit While More Expensive

Return to “Wargame : Red Dragon”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 48 guests

cron