#MakeAmericaGreatAgain

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Fade2Gray » Sun 3 Sep 2017 02:19

Markenzwieback wrote:You justified punching people of different political opinion. And that is, by definition, something democratic discourse should not be featuring.

Their political opinion includes the desire to commit genocide and other Nazi and KKK things, and even includes joking about running people over with cars. Considering how our society has evolved, where we are not supposed to look down on Slavs, gypsies, blacks, etc etc, as inferior to the "master race" and what not, it shouldn't be too surprising that when such such groups demonstrate you have people who do not agree with them lose their minds in the process.

Does this justify violence? By the law, no it does not. In an ideal world, violence would never happen in political debate. On the flip side, it doesn't really justify the lies you are pushing either. I'm still waiting for you to provide the sources I asked for earlier. Why I don't approve of this edgy call for violence that Doin (and a few others) want which will solve literally nothing, your misinformation that, to me, borderlines on trying to cover for Nazis and KKK like the Trumpets are doing is not much better.

Now, do you have the sources I requested earlier, or not?
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Doinize » Sun 3 Sep 2017 04:11

Markenzwieback wrote:To put it bluntly: When you encounter a Neo-Nazi attacking someone due to his political opinion, using violence to stop him is in itself not a political act (you might frame it as one, but its plain and simple self-defense).

Yeah, fine, i wouldnt necessarily call it apolitical, but yeah, all in all, its just self defense as defined by german law...

Attacking a Neo-Nazi not physically harming anyone is using violence as a political tool, which I am against.

Unless its preemptive self defense but i dont think thats what you are talking about...

But if you twist the idea of self-defense to the point where the simple presence of Neo-Nazis is a physical danger, something is pretty wrong.

Eh...
Neo-Nazis arent really famous for being the most cool headed people around. Shit like this happening after or during Neo-Nazi ralleys isnt really a rare occurance...
Them being around certainly doesnt make a place safer, especially so for any minorities around. I'd at least be alert...

And this is my basic problem with Antifa activism, the lack of adherence to core democratic values (be it out of simple neglect or ideological reasons).

And you can have that problem, I understand where you are coming from. I'm arguing that it is necessary, as democracy is illequipped to defend itself against anti-democratic forces. At least without abandoning the core values they are trying to protect in the first place.

Was that just an entire paragraph we sort of agreed on?

If I remember correctly, the constitutional court ruled that the simple fact of holding a Neo-Nazi opinion or voicing favors for Fascism is not against the law.

I frankly dont give a shit about the law in this case...I dont want these people to be arrested for thier belives. Im a communist, that could backfire reeeeeally quick
I dont want them bringing thier ideas into the public. I dont what them organising. Because thats how a movement to grows. And thiers must not grow.


Let them speak out loud and show the public how full of shit they are.

But what if the public starts to agree? What then? It happend, and it can happen again.
A look into the "Mitte-Studien" reveals the frankly disturbing popularity and acceptance of far-right talking points.
Do not think that thier bad ideas will automatically disqualify them...

A democracy needs to uphold its core values even in the face of people who don't favor having it around.

And thats exactly how you loose them...Its a paradox.

And if they try to actively abolish it, hit them with everything the state has in its arsenal.

If they can actively try to abolish it, it is already to late. At least if it is anything more than a doomed attempt by a bunch of idiots...

And i wouldnt rely on the state to do that...
Its not really a secret that there are problems with far-right army personell and members of the police force...not even mentioning the Verfassungsschutz...
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Shrike » Sun 3 Sep 2017 04:57

I prefer to fight them with the war of wars. Attack their logic, their arguments, belittle them, make fun of them.

Plus that shaved head guy at Charlottesville was basically a coward. He kept walking around with his shirt off and tons of guns with the intent to create a dangerous situation. I hope he never runs for any kind of office, because that guy is a danger to himself and others.
Last edited by Shrike on Sun 3 Sep 2017 05:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Fade2Gray » Sun 3 Sep 2017 05:00

Doinize wrote:Unless its preemptive self defense but i dont think thats what you are talking about...

Sometimes I think people are blatantly out to trigger me hardcore. Gooooosseeeefraba.... *takes a long and deep breath*

You realize where I've spent years of my life and sacrificed much of my health in service of such logic, right?

Shrike wrote:I prefer to fight them with the war of wars. Attack their logic, their arguments, belittle them, make fun of them.

Fallacies do not win arguments, they just make your own position look weaker.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Sun 3 Sep 2017 11:23

As we managed to reach a point of mutual understanding (not agreement, but at least understanding), I think we can cut the basic discussion down a little.
Doinize wrote:A look into the "Mitte-Studien" reveals the frankly disturbing popularity and acceptance of far-right talking points.
Do not think that thier bad ideas will automatically disqualify them...

Just want to point out that the "Mitte-Studien" have certain methodological problems that were highlighted by many different scholars in political science. Sure, they are interesting results, but with 5% of people supporting dictatorship and only slightly more people with an "enclosed radical right-wing world view" I wouldn't exactly call those ideas that disturbingly popular.
Doinize wrote:Its not really a secret that there are problems with far-right army personell and members of the police force...not even mentioning the Verfassungsschutz...

While I agree that there are, I am not sure about the extend of such problem really.

Still, my position that military service of at least one year should be mandatory (with the exception of alternative service) partly derives from that. I myself have spend a short time with our Armed Forces (even wanted to become an officer). Out of what I experienced I would say that a very many of the people filling the non-com and officer ranks and not showing any far-right affiliation were those that stayed after military service. Staatsbürger in Uniform and the influx of people with many different political opinions is a concept only really meaningful when there is a conscript army.

But that is a whole nother can of worms! :D

Fade2Gray wrote:
Spoiler : :
Their political opinion includes the desire to commit genocide and other Nazi and KKK things, and even includes joking about running people over with cars. Considering how our society has evolved, where we are not supposed to look down on Slavs, gypsies, blacks, etc etc, as inferior to the "master race" and what not, it shouldn't be too surprising that when such such groups demonstrate you have people who do not agree with them lose their minds in the process.

Does this justify violence? By the law, no it does not. In an ideal world, violence would never happen in political debate. On the flip side, it doesn't really justify the lies you are pushing either. I'm still waiting for you to provide the sources I asked for earlier. Why I don't approve of this edgy call for violence that Doin (and a few others) want which will solve literally nothing, your misinformation that, to me, borderlines on trying to cover for Nazis and KKK like the Trumpets are doing is not much better.

Now, do you have the sources I requested earlier, or not?

Arguing for the democratic rights of even the most despicable people is covering up for Nazis and KKK? Really? There was a time in the US where even the supporters of Hitler were granted full constitutional protection, despite Nazi Germany not being particularly well received on the other side of the Atlantic. I personally think that this principle should be upheld even today. But I argued that position already in my constant ramblings with Doinize, so I'll leave it at that.

When looking at Antifa, at least from my German perspective, their actions are in many cases what I would associate with the goal of control of major sections of societal discourse. Of course there is many different practical applications of the ideology around (heck, they even bash their own heads in on questions like the Middle East and Israel-Palestine), but their actions venture into every aspect of society (or try to do it).

Many have the political goal of abolishing Capitalism, they want to exclude an fight an entire part of the political spectrum (the still democratic right-wing), they promote their own view of society (very much a multicultural one where everything that is even slightly against their ideas is racist), they use violence to promote their means in social questions (one example being squatting). And most importantly: they apply a distinct amount of physical pressure (I would even call it attempted terror) in their pursuit of political goals (the manipulation and torching of cars of policemen and political enemies, manhunts of known and identified right-wingers or Neo Nazis, attacking of public presentations and gatherings of parties they don't like (mostly AfD as of now) or break-in into private space with the goal of creating fear and deter people from further pursuing their political goals.

While all this isn't 100% textbook totalitarianism and there definitely are variations of Antifa groups (heck I have seen school children at the rough age of 11-12 years old being given Antifa flags, put infront of water cannons and told to scream the 'Alerta' bullshit), the general impression of accumulated actions over the last years have led me to judge them in the way I do. You want me to link a direct quote of Antifa straight up proposing a totalitarian system? I obviously cannot provide that. But many Antifa groups publicly behave quite similar to the political Sturmtruppen of the radical left in the recent German past and varying forms of communist ideology are very present with many of those groups. Hence my argumentation.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Fade2Gray » Sun 3 Sep 2017 18:50

Markenzwieback wrote:Arguing for the democratic rights of even the most despicable people is covering up for Nazis and KKK? Really? There was a time in the US where even the supporters of Hitler were granted full constitutional protection, despite Nazi Germany not being particularly well received on the other side of the Atlantic. I personally think that this principle should be upheld even today. But I argued that position already in my constant ramblings with Doinize, so I'll leave it at that.

The US government has not infringed on the 1st Amendment rights of the Neo-Nazis or KKK, at all, recently as far as I can tell. You are free to preach a genocidal ideology, that we went to war with, all you wish without fear of cops or the military coming to get you. You might be told to go have your little get together somewhere else, but they can't stop you from pushing the Nazi/KKK message. Am I wrong on this? Has the government cracked down on Nazis or the KKK's 1st Amendment rights recently? No, unless I missed something. With this in mind, what's your point?

When looking at Antifa, at least from my German perspective, their actions are in many cases what I would associate with the goal of control of major sections of societal discourse. Of course there is many different practical applications of the ideology around (heck, they even bash their own heads in on questions like the Middle East and Israel-Palestine), but their actions venture into every aspect of society (or try to do it).

Sounds like you are reading way too deeply into them. I view them as the offspring of an overly emotionally charged bunch of youth who have taken their edginess way too far. I remember being a bit like that at their age, though not anywhere near as bad. They are deeply fragmented, but now they have something that brings the many different groups together. That thing is Trump and his blatant courting of the alt-right. Of course, some people are trying to label all of ANTIFA with a broad brush now that they are "united."

I'm willing to put money on that when Trump loses power, as long as he doesn't have a crony or some other alt-right magnet come in to replace him, ANTIFA will pretty much melt away in short order. Of course, this is up for debate depending on how much Trump manages to "Trumpify" the GOP. Still, Trump is the symbol of their hate, and their main focus, period.

snip

The rest of this is just you admitting that you have nothing to back your claims that ANTIFA are as totalitarianism as Nazis.

tl;dr that claim of yours is total bullshit and you know it, we all know it, barring those who are sold out on the right wing rhetoric.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Sun 3 Sep 2017 22:49

Fade2Gray wrote:The US government has not infringed on the 1st Amendment rights of the Neo-Nazis or KKK, at all, recently as far as I can tell. You are free to preach a genocidal ideology, that we went to war with, all you wish without fear of cops or the military coming to get you. You might be told to go have your little get together somewhere else, but they can't stop you from pushing the Nazi/KKK message. Am I wrong on this? Has the government cracked down on Nazis or the KKK's 1st Amendment rights recently? No, unless I missed something. With this in mind, what's your point?

We were talking about Antifa going out to punch people, as described in the article that sparked this debate. I never talked about the government not granting rights, but Antifa members trying to infringe upon them.

Fade2Gray wrote:Sounds like you are reading way too deeply into them. I view them as the offspring of an overly emotionally charged bunch of youth who have taken their edginess way too far. I remember being a bit like that at their age, though not anywhere near as bad. They are deeply fragmented, but now they have something that brings the many different groups together. That thing is Trump and his blatant courting of the alt-right. Of course, some people are trying to label all of ANTIFA with a broad brush now that they are "united."

I'm willing to put money on that when Trump loses power, as long as he doesn't have a crony or some other alt-right magnet come in to replace him, ANTIFA will pretty much melt away in short order. Of course, this is up for debate depending on how much Trump manages to "Trumpify" the GOP. Still, Trump is the symbol of their hate, and their main focus, period.

Well, I would disagree on the point of them washing away once Trump is gone. Sure, he is the uniting factor right now, but it will depend on whether they keep their organizational structures they are building up right now, which I would consider as pretty likely. If they manage to connect as they did over here in Europe, Antifa will remain for a while even when Trump is gone. European radical leftist groups even have achieved organizational levels to pull off coordinated sabotage on the German railway system prior to G20.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Fade2Gray » Mon 4 Sep 2017 07:18

Markenzwieback wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:The US government has not infringed on the 1st Amendment rights of the Neo-Nazis or KKK, at all, recently as far as I can tell. You are free to preach a genocidal ideology, that we went to war with, all you wish without fear of cops or the military coming to get you. You might be told to go have your little get together somewhere else, but they can't stop you from pushing the Nazi/KKK message. Am I wrong on this? Has the government cracked down on Nazis or the KKK's 1st Amendment rights recently? No, unless I missed something. With this in mind, what's your point?

We were talking about Antifa going out to punch people, as described in the article that sparked this debate. I never talked about the government not granting rights, but Antifa members trying to infringe upon them.

Do you know how the 1st Amendment works? I'm thinking you do not. The Nazis and KKK have not had their 1st Amendment rights infringed upon, at all, end of discussion. The 1st Amendment protects you from the government messing with your right to free speech, peaceful assembly, and so on. It does not protect you from other citizens counter protesting, or corporations firing you because they don't like what you say, and that sort of thing.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

Just a refresher for you. Notice it is pretty cut and dry, the government shall not mess with your rights listed above, but it says nothing about other private citizens.

https://debmcalister.com/2011/06/03/7-t ... ts-to-say/
But the First Amendment can’t protect Internet and social media users who forget that the free speech guarantee isn’t a free pass to say whatever you want without facing consequences. That’s because while the First Amendment protects some kinds of speech (that is, you can say or do it), there’s no requirement that other people (such as employers, fraternal organizations, or schools) have to associate with you once you do.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/27/politics/ ... index.html

tl;dr when you get banned from Twitter or shouted down by ANTIFA your 1st Amendment rights have not been violated. Please stop warping what the 1st Amendment is.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 4 Sep 2017 09:35

Fade2Gray wrote:
Spoiler : :
Markenzwieback wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:The US government has not infringed on the 1st Amendment rights of the Neo-Nazis or KKK, at all, recently as far as I can tell. You are free to preach a genocidal ideology, that we went to war with, all you wish without fear of cops or the military coming to get you. You might be told to go have your little get together somewhere else, but they can't stop you from pushing the Nazi/KKK message. Am I wrong on this? Has the government cracked down on Nazis or the KKK's 1st Amendment rights recently? No, unless I missed something. With this in mind, what's your point?

We were talking about Antifa going out to punch people, as described in the article that sparked this debate. I never talked about the government not granting rights, but Antifa members trying to infringe upon them.

Do you know how the 1st Amendment works? I'm thinking you do not. The Nazis and KKK have not had their 1st Amendment rights infringed upon, at all, end of discussion. The 1st Amendment protects you from the government messing with your right to free speech, peaceful assembly, and so on. It does not protect you from other citizens counter protesting, or corporations firing you because they don't like what you say, and that sort of thing.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

Just a refresher for you. Notice it is pretty cut and dry, the government shall not mess with your rights listed above, but it says nothing about other private citizens.

https://debmcalister.com/2011/06/03/7-t ... ts-to-say/
But the First Amendment can’t protect Internet and social media users who forget that the free speech guarantee isn’t a free pass to say whatever you want without facing consequences. That’s because while the First Amendment protects some kinds of speech (that is, you can say or do it), there’s no requirement that other people (such as employers, fraternal organizations, or schools) have to associate with you once you do.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/27/politics/ ... index.html

tl;dr when you get banned from Twitter or shouted down by ANTIFA your 1st Amendment rights have not been violated. Please stop warping what the 1st Amendment is.

Hold your horses. I have never mentioned the 1st Amendment, for one because I simply don't know enough about US constitutional law in the US to reliably use the information in a discussion. Yes, the article from the 30s I linked primarily talks about the government, but I used it to highlight the general position towards the rights of even the most despicable members of society that was present during the time.

And it is not merely the point of being shouted down by Antifa that is my problem (that by itself would be entirely fine, as they are only exercising their own right to free speech and assembly to protest peacefully), but the use of physical force in the attempt to get the political opposition off the streets is what I was referring to. There is plenty of those cases around, starting at some point during the electoral campaign.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Fade2Gray » Mon 4 Sep 2017 12:09

Markenzwieback wrote:snip

Just stop, I really do not have the patience for Darth Lampshade level shenanigans anymore.

Freedom of speech has not been messed with for the KKK or the Neo-Nazis, now drop it.
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