Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

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WarriorWounds
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Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

Postby WarriorWounds » Tue 11 Aug 2015 17:25

Hello,

I recently observed and co-casted a match in the finals of a tournament and I wanted to showcase a certain game and highlight a problem with balance that's currently in the game.

the match:
@11:50 (game 2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddRpLAurn_E

The matchup was between cartel and chimera. The game began and ended within a couple of minutes due to the power of a crusher rush from Szalami1 in the game.

The issue is the power of the crusher early game against cartel, as cartel you can't really defend yourself from a group of 6 crushers armed with their upgrade right out of the gate, vipers don't have the range to engage them and the crushers can shoot down the k-max's in the cartels base with no real alternatives for the cartel player.

There isn't really a viable way to defend yourself like this in this matchup unless you are clairvoyant and waste extreme amounts of oil in the early game to have vipers at every chokepoint and artillery turrets setup, it will also force you to lose the game if chimera dosen't even do the rush.

You can't scout the crushers because if they upgrade they will insta wipe the k-max recon leaving you unable to know which way they will come.

Please look into this video and address the issue developers, I don't think it's fair or balanced at the moment.

Edit: here are some additional unbiased replays for you about the problem from later posts:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tand7h9cht255 ... arpl2?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ui6uf6z3fqab ... arpl2?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hmbu8qd7mo7j ... arpl2?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/amqsw7tciqj6l ... arpl2?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lv5dm7e1pkmj8 ... arpl2?dl=0

http://www.gamereplays.org/actofaggress ... &id=305616

http://www.gamereplays.org/actofaggress ... &id=305617

http://www.gamereplays.org/actofaggress ... &id=305618
Last edited by WarriorWounds on Wed 12 Aug 2015 00:10, edited 3 times in total.

Opticalx
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Re: Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

Postby Opticalx » Tue 11 Aug 2015 17:28

Barracks > viper spam GG.

Oto > chimera GG

you proved it.
Youtube - Opticalx

fujix
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Re: Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

Postby fujix » Tue 11 Aug 2015 17:34

Crushers out range Vipers and can kite them all day long. Problem is Vipers are slow and have shit range.
Doing an optimized Crusher rush vs Cartel at around 2-2:30 min marker is a bitch to deal with.

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WarriorWounds
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Re: Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

Postby WarriorWounds » Tue 11 Aug 2015 17:34

Opticalx wrote:Barracks > viper spam GG.

Oto > chimera GG

you proved it.


Well, in this particular example, you can't even get otto's out fast enough, the crushers just come too quickly, the crushers outrange the vipers as shown in the video and you can't even use them.

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Re: Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

Postby Opticalx » Tue 11 Aug 2015 17:38

Problem was, he didnt even scout what szalami was doing, as a cartel you have that really big advantage with the early intell. He didnt see it comming. If he did, he could have had some vipers up hill or in the buildings. and have an arty turret ready.
Youtube - Opticalx

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WarriorWounds
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Re: Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

Postby WarriorWounds » Tue 11 Aug 2015 17:43

Opticalx wrote:Problem was, he didnt even scout what szalami was doing, as a cartel you have that really big advantage with the early intell. He didnt see it comming. If he did, he could have had some vipers up hill or in the buildings. and have an arty turret ready.


No, you see that's preaching clairvoyance, he didn't know which way it would come, you're asking the other player to invest in like 12 vipers and 2 artillery turrets by the 3 minute mark, there is nothing to really scout about a crusher rush anyway, and by the time you realize they have the upgrade the k-max will be instagibbed, leaving you in the dark.

Also you can see how ineffective the turrets were to begin with, so even if you were able to the force the chimera player to have his crushers attack into an early turret, the crushers would just kill the turret, its just too insanely effective.
Last edited by WarriorWounds on Tue 11 Aug 2015 17:58, edited 1 time in total.

Opticalx
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Re: Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

Postby Opticalx » Tue 11 Aug 2015 17:46

Well, if he didnt go for the GREED oil build and got the alu instead, he could have 1 oto ez
Youtube - Opticalx

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WarriorWounds
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Re: Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

Postby WarriorWounds » Tue 11 Aug 2015 17:49

Greed oil build? he only had 2 oil refinery's ffs, what is he supposed to do, be forced to rush build otto's every game off of no barracks just in case the chimera decide to abuse this particular tactic at the 3 minute mark?

That's unhealthy for the game in the long run as it reduces the number of viable build orders, if you really understood what was happening in the video you'd see that, its too much to handle for any player.

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Re: Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

Postby fujix » Tue 11 Aug 2015 17:59

Opticalx, The Crushers can reach the enemy base at around 2:15-2:30. Maybe even faster if you do it really optimized.
Going for fast Otos, the first Oto will be built at around 3 minutes. By this time the Cartel player will probably not have any K-Max left and the Crushers can take on the Oto.

I dont want to nerf Crusher rush, its the only good thing Chimera has going for them in the early game. But perhaps the Vipers could get increased range or something so they atleast can counter USA recon and Crusher rushes more effectively. Cartel are extremely vulnerable the first minutes.

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Re: Balance Issue: Crusher rush versus Cartel

Postby Opticalx » Tue 11 Aug 2015 18:03

7 crushers = 2450 + 1750 = 4200. If you get that oto out and stop the rush you have forced them to waste loads of oil early on. and in 3mins that is a big deal.
Youtube - Opticalx

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