Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

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Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

Postby captaincarnage » Tue 20 Oct 2015 18:07

Initial Brainstorm
Spoiler : :
As things stand at the moment the Commonwealth is not in a good spot as far as game balance goes, it suffered from being nearly as good as Eurocorps at one point and since then its advantages have been progressively whittled away either by Meta changes or flat out nerfs. Personally i can see no point in playing commonwealth in a try hard game, i would honestly rather play a UK deck and exploit the availability bonus and extra activation points to try and mask the inherent shortcomings.

In my view aside from having a lot of useless units (thanks Canada, Anzacs and the MOD) it also suffers from a lot of critical capability gaps without having a really strong sense of anything that its particularly good at. As an example, its tank lineup has lots of options, sadly the backbone with a few notable exceptions is slow, overpriced and gimped by a low ROF.

The general consensus seems to be that commonwealth is now one of the weaker Coaltions overall, while it has some headline grabbing prototype units, the backbone of its units are mediocre or just plain lacking relative to the other coalitions and superpowers. As such i feel an availability bonus of somewhere between 10% and 15% would be a useful starting point.

So here's my tab by tab run down on what i think is in need of improvement as well as.

Logistics
Nothing much to get excited about one way or another here, the basic requirements are satisfied for a useable tab, here nothing to add.

Infantry
This used to be considered a strong point for CW, since the minimi got nerfed into relative mediocrity nothing really shines relative to the other powers, the only point which stands out here is the wide availability of the LAW80 for british infantry, which is a very good disposable RPG, but doesn't really help much if you're having to deal with hordes of superior anti infantry units (AKA REDFOR)

Specialist/support infantry units cover all the bases without being exceptional. The lack of a modern ATGM with decent accuracy or a Manpad that hits more than it misses is not so hot. Nothing we can really do here without adding new units or re balancing ATGM's with terrible accuracy which probably isn't going to happen.

Elite infantry are ok without being exceptional now, all of the elite infantry options for commonwealth are very expensive relative to their actual capabilities with none of them being close to being best in class.
SAS NEED access to a ground transport, even if its an unarmed lorry like the stalwart. Every single Elite squad including those comparable to the SAS have this including the god tier LSTR's. Failing this most reasonable request give them the stinger C so that they are actually good at something and not the poor cousins of LSTR's. you can always prototype them if you do this so mixed decks don't get buffed.
SASR - these guys are objectively rubbish for their price, at most they should be 30 points.

Transports - The Warrior IFV line is the bread and butter battle taxi for line infantry, sadly its autocannon is slow firing, inaccurate and horribly short of ammo. Buffing either the accuracy slightly or the miserly ammo load would help it to justify its price a bit more. Alternatively buffing its suppression would be an interesting way to make it more effective against infantry which it tends to struggle with.

This is contravertial but in my view the minimi ought to get a small buff, its now mediocre in DPS terms relative to the other 90's SAW's for reasons which have never been entirely clear. Either a 5% accuracy buff or a modest ROF increase would be acceptable. As it stands Commonwealth is always going to be on the losing end of infantry duels which seems to contradict their supposed strength which is having good infantry.

Support
Slow and very limited Anti plane AA, slow and inaccurate anti helo AA are the two biggest issues here. The fact that it only has 81mm mortars also makes it difficult to provide effective fire support without being screwed by longer range redfor mortars.

Buffing the rapier FSA's availability or giving it a 10kmh speed boost would be enormously helpful here. As things stand at the moment its inability to move above snails pace offroad means it is normally arty bait with a short lifespan.

Buffing accuracy of both the ADATs and the Stormer in exchange for reduced ground range would definitely help, as it stands neither are very good AA units and you're paying through the nose for a secondary ability that you rarely need or want as well as being something that IRL they are barely used for. Alternatively buff the anti helo range of the chally marksman in exchange for a 5 point price nerf.

Recon
Nothing particularly great here and a lot of redundancy unfortunately.

Re-roll one of the 3 defunct and obsolete Elite infantry recon squads to a 90's version either prototyped with something tasty like a LAW80 + minimi or un proto'd with an AT4 + Minimi. The most obvious candidate here would be SBS as Green Jackets fill the CAT B/C combat recon roll adequately, but buffing any of the 3 squads to have a viable anti tank weapon would help enormously and cover an obvious shortcoming.

Buff the ferrets autonomy to give commonwealth a mediocre but usable combat recon AT unit.

Buff the ammo loadout for the canadian sniper squad, 20 rounds doesn't last very long, though 'fortunately' being a 2 man squad these guys generally die pretty quick anyway and the noise from their rifle attracts a lot of attention if you use it for its intended purpose.

Tanks
The only tank which costs 100+ points and is any good is the Chally 2, sadly you only get two of them. The leopards are nice but fragile and no substitute for heavy armor.

Price nerf the LEO C2 mexas by 5 points, its just to good for its current price.
Chieftan MK11 price buff by 5, its inferior to the K1 and T72BI as its ROF means it loses 1v1 duels more often than not against comparable tanks.
Chally 1 Mk3 either increase FAV by 1 or buff price by 5. Its flat out inferior to the Leclerc and roughly on a par with the T80U.
Buff availability of chally 2 by 1 increment so you can get 3 per card, this would be harmonious with Commonwealth supposedly having good tanks.

Vehicles
Barring a major re-balance of the vehicle tab, specifically ATGM haulers there's not much to do here, removing the minimum range on the AVRE would help if the minimi is not going to be on a par with the RPK-74. As it stands at the moment commonwealth is always going to be on the losing end of a forest fight against redfor. Given how slowly the AVRE aims and firse its unlikely that this would seriously impact game balance as infantry are always going to get the first shot in unless they're not on attack move.

Helicopters
Desperately lacking in quality with the only standout unit being the lynx 3 (which isn't really saying a great deal about the other options)
The Lynx 3 is a bit of an oddity, if it is going to keep its current loadout, a 5-10 point price buff would make it a more efficient choice as in my view 110 points for a 8 helfires and a 4 fairly largely useless stingers A's isn't good value for points. Alternatively swap the stinger A's for Starstreak missiles which i'm led to believe we're capable of being mounted on the platform and would give it a decent anti helo capability if micro'd sensibly.

Plane Tab
Nothing really stands out as being exceptional here. ASF's are fine, strike power against tanks is desperately limited, not helped by the GR7 nerf which was the only effective and relatively survivable plane in the tab. The global buff to ASF missile range has further blunted Commonwealth strike capability as things like the GR7 and the Kahu are very slow and therefore more vulnerable to fighters than something speedy.

Buff the Jaguar GR1'As price or buff the missile accuracy, as it stands its useless and a total liability.

Buff the availability of the Kahu back to 3 per card. A 600kmh plane is generally not much of a threat against competent opposition particularly now ASF's have received a range buff and spaags and missile AA have been significantly improved.

Either buff the ECM of the F111C to 20% in line with the other varks or make it 2 cards of 1. Currently it is about as much use as a kleenex tissue because if you use it once, its pretty unlikely to be something you can use again in that game as it will be doing a very convincing simulation of a lawn dart at some point during or after its first bombing run. As the B5 has 2 card availability this doesn't seem wholly unreasonable.

Alternatives
If commonwealth is beyond saving and it honestly looks that way unless the bulk of these changes are implemented then plan B would be to make a new coalition called AFNORTH (UK+Norway) which would arguably provide more interesting and useful units than the other 2 members of the commonwealth ever would.


Tanks Proposal
The Chieftain and Challenger 1 line are pretty clearly inferior to the tanks they're supposed to be balanced against. We've discussed selective price and availability changes but they don't really make commonwealth noticeably better and have the potential to make pricing awkward for other similarly priced tanks.

There however is a very simple, authentic and balanced solution; Give the Chieftain and Challenger 1 lines a global buff of +1 RPM. Outlined below is a more detailed proposal for the individual tanks:
Challenger 1 Mk3 ROF 8>9 price unchanged
Challenger 1 Mk2 Rof 7>8 price unchanged
Challenger 1 Mk1 ROF 7>8 price unchanged
Chieftain Mark 11 ROF 7>8 availability reduced to 8/6 per card price unchanged
Chieftain Mark 10 ROF 7>8 range on main gun increased 2100>2275
Chieftain Mark 5 ROF 7>8 price increased from $45 to $50
Chieftain Mark 3 ROF 7>8 price increased from $35 to $40

In addition the Leopard C2 Mexas is overly efficient for its cost and Runs the T72BI very close indeed in max range gun duels. Price increase from $75-$80
Its Worth noting here that the Chimera shares the same gun as the Chally 1 Mk2 and presumably therefore the same loading process.
I suggest therefore increasing the ROF from 6>8 and possibly nerfing the price to 125, though i feel 120 points is still a fair price based on its raw stats. This change would also make it somewhat possible for Canada to into something vaguely resembling a heavy tank!

In my opinion the above changes would restore some flavor and balance to the equation and would move commonwealth closer to Eastern Block and Euro corps levels of relative quality and competitiveness in some areas, which is where it really ought to be.

Justification for ROF buff (Thanks to Mr Maf and Xeno)
Spoiler : :
Before I go on, I would like to link this video about the Chieftain yet again, with a transcript of the relevant bit:
[spoiler=]


3:12

The rounds are 3-piece ammunition. Everybody thinks of them as two — really, it's technically three.

First part is the projectile. Now, if it's an inert round, like the armor piercing, they're scattered around inside the turret, in the bustle, close to hand. Explosive rounds, such as HESH, would usually be stowed in a safe position below the turret ring.

Now, the next part of it was your propellant charge. These were bagged charges; the entire charge would be consumed. They were stowed in armored bins around within reach of the loader.

The third part was the vent tube. It looked a lot like a 50-caliber blank round, and this was basically the primer. They were fed through a 10-round magazine, so the loader generally only had to load projectile and charge, arm the cannon, and his job was done. Now, every tenth round, he would have to change the magazine out, as well.

There are a couple advantages to this. One was there were no spent casings lying around because all that was left was the little 50-cal-type, the vent tube.

The other advantage was that you could now lap load. 105[mm]s, this wasn't a problem, either. Now, what lap loading is, is you are holding the next round in your hand, ready for the gun to fire. As soon as it fires, you throw the next round in, you're loaded, and while the gunner is servicing the target, you grab the next round.

This is not permissible with modern smoothbore 120[mm] ammunition because the shell casing will consume itself in the process of firing. It is somewhat combustible — it is dangerous to lap load your rounds. With the 3-piece ammunition, however — especially if you're firing fin rounds — you could lap load because there's nothing to explode if you're holding the projectile. So, as soon as the breech is open after recoiling, you can immediately throw in the next shell, and not have to worry about ammunition doors to open or anything else like that. Then, the bagged charge is very small and light — at least compared to an entire round — so it doesn't take [the loader] all that long to grab that out of stowage and throw that in afterwards.

So, in practical terms, the rate of fire of the multiple-piece ammunition in the British tanks is actually about the same as that of a one-piece ammunition on, say, a Leopard 2 or M1. And of course, bear in mind, this came out 20 years before the Abrams.
It basically explains how the British 3-piece ammo works and is a reasonably plausible justification as to why the British tanks are unfairly gimped and deserve a better fire rat, over and above practical game play considerations. The only limiting factor on the Chally 1 so far as I'm aware is FCS which is accurate buy slow (however the challenger 1 line would still have a lower rate of fire than their piers with the exception of the 1Mk3, that said Wargame tank combat is abstracted and most of the time you're firing away at the same target until you or it are destroyed so a slightly slower aim time shouldn't impact the ROF.

Test replay file showing Chieftain MK11's getting wrecked by T72BI's at max gun range.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/wyxy1 ... argamerpl2

Feel free to comment and discuss :)
Last edited by captaincarnage on Tue 8 Dec 2015 18:41, edited 22 times in total.
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Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

Postby Mitchverr » Tue 20 Oct 2015 18:39

Logi i would say is fine/good, the lynx command stuff gives a good strength to them ove a few other nations and they have both chinook choices which is also a nice thing to have, got alot of pros of speed and support in that.

Support i would say they are mostly fine, not great, not bad, would be nice to get a lil more damage dealing by marksman (iirc its rather lackluster in comparason to a couple others) but heh. Mortars are alright, do the job, a 120 could go in there (anzac) but require new model so wont. Best bet would be perhaps a buff for the abbot accuracy etc to make it a unique 105 to kind of fill the gap. Missile AA is alot better then it once was, i would call it fine bar the adats/stormer which could use some speed buff to missile :D

Troops are good, not bad, not great, middle ground. Transports are pretty decent, RARDEN across board could use a lil accuracy buff and ammo buff for anyone carrying it (the lack of ammo is a real pain in many aspects for CW). Another ASLAV card would help also for deploying ANZAC based units. Milan 2 is meh but can do things. RBS in anzac is pretty good for keeping away choppers.

Tanks are good/okay, as you say the challengers and chieftains are off still but i doubt a change will come. Leopard C2 Mexas could be price hiked(still a shame no AP 19 gun for it :p) without to much issue. Scorpions could use a tad more accuracy.

Recon, plenty of spotting recon, less combat recon, RARDENs again a lil change of more ammo etc, not much really needs to happen in here imo, recce more ammo would be nice too.

In vehicle tab, a buff to the chimera and a range/accuracy buff to the saladin with ammo buff to the RR trucks are really it there, gives the ability to have a strong point holder (chimera) and the ability to have a good and cheap flank/fire brigade force which wont run out of ammo as quickly. AVRE min range removal would be exceptionally helpful along with giving it the ability to hurt tanks would be nice lol.

Helicopters are ok, decent tank snipers, not much else, "but it has stingers" i hear for lynx 3, well, it is also the worst price to effective ratio AA chopper in the game, the only nation with something on par is the US i believe and even then they are better :lol: Starstreak lynx 3! I know, wont happen.

Planes, jaguar gr1a mega buffs to missile range and accuracy and a buff to turn rad would be great, historically accurate and also helps having it useful, that or give it HEAT pods and make it killy. Could turn the navy tab tornado into the SEAD and then turn Sea Harrier FA.2 into a AMRAAM base, would work well in conjunction with the sea harriers with sidewinders.
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Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

Postby Xeno426 » Tue 20 Oct 2015 18:43

Oh what I'd do if I had control over how the CMW worked.

I think the biggest inprovements would would be their UK tank ROF, Chieftain Mk.10 range, Challenger 1 line prices, replacing some Blowpipes and early Rapiers with Starburst and FSB1/FSB2 units, and range buff to AJ.168 and some aircraft price buffs.

I'd personally want a lot more (some loadout changes, for one), but that's even less likely to happen.

Brutoni once asked me what I'd so to the CMW deck to improve it: this was my respinse
Spoiler : text response :
Reduce price on their tank line, upgrade the range of the Chieftain Mk.10, increase ROF to maximum (like everyone else's tank; if the 4rpm T-62 can get 6rpm, the Chieftain can get better), upgrade UK Blowpipe to a Starburst and their early Rapier to FSB2. Move ANZAC F-4E to UK as FGR.2 Phantom with M61A1, 4xAIM-9G and 4xSkyflash. Rename Tornado F.3 to Tornado GR.4, armed with 3x or 5xALARM. Rename Tornado F.2 to Tornado F.3, give +2 AIM-9s. Rearm Harrier FA.2 with 2xAIM-120 and 4xAIM-9L. Rearm GR.7 with 2xCPU-123/B. Improve Swingfire accuracy. Buff AJ.168 range. Make FV103 a troop carrier again. Turn Canadian anti-ship F/A-18 into ANZAC fighter. Reduce cost on Chimera. Improve HMV and ADATS accuracy.

Now, I don't think anyone would consider me a UK fanboy, or even terrible BLUFOR-biased, so I think these are changes most people could get behind.

And those were changes I came up with in the span of a couple minutes of thinking.
Last edited by Xeno426 on Tue 3 Nov 2015 02:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

Postby DeckCheney » Tue 20 Oct 2015 19:40

+1 to the OP.

Changes to commonwealth I'd like to see-

Massive Accuracy/Suppression/AP buff for the Rarden Autocannons including a Stabiliser.

5pt price buff across the board for the cheiftan/Challenger lines.

A 20% availability bonus.
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Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

Postby DeckCheney » Tue 20 Oct 2015 19:42

Xeno426 wrote:Now, I don't think anyone would consider me a UK fanboy, or even terrible BLUFOR-biased, so I think these are changes most people could get behind.


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Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

Postby Mister Maf » Tue 20 Oct 2015 20:44

I would prioritize Xeno's list over the OP's, but several of them have been explicitly denied, sadly.

Before I go on, I would like to link this video about the Chieftain yet again, with a transcript of the relevant bit:
Spoiler : :


3:12

The rounds are 3-piece ammunition. Everybody thinks of them as two — really, it's technically three.

First part is the projectile. Now, if it's an inert round, like the armor piercing, they're scattered around inside the turret, in the bustle, close to hand. Explosive rounds, such as HESH, would usually be stowed in a safe position below the turret ring.

Now, the next part of it was your propellant charge. These were bagged charges; the entire charge would be consumed. They were stowed in armored bins around within reach of the loader.

The third part was the vent tube. It looked a lot like a 50-caliber blank round, and this was basically the primer. They were fed through a 10-round magazine, so the loader generally only had to load projectile and charge, arm the cannon, and his job was done. Now, every tenth round, he would have to change the magazine out, as well.

There are a couple advantages to this. One was there were no spent casings lying around because all that was left was the little 50-cal-type, the vent tube.

The other advantage was that you could now lap load. 105[mm]s, this wasn't a problem, either. Now, what lap loading is, is you are holding the next round in your hand, ready for the gun to fire. As soon as it fires, you throw the next round in, you're loaded, and while the gunner is servicing the target, you grab the next round.

This is not permissible with modern smoothbore 120[mm] ammunition because the shell casing will consume itself in the process of firing. It is somewhat combustible — it is dangerous to lap load your rounds. With the 3-piece ammunition, however — especially if you're firing fin rounds — you could lap load because there's nothing to explode if you're holding the projectile. So, as soon as the breech is open after recoiling, you can immediately throw in the next shell, and not have to worry about ammunition doors to open or anything else like that. Then, the bagged charge is very small and light — at least compared to an entire round — so it doesn't take [the loader] all that long to grab that out of stowage and throw that in afterwards.

So, in practical terms, the rate of fire of the multiple-piece ammunition in the British tanks is actually about the same as that of a one-piece ammunition on, say, a Leopard 2 or M1. And of course, bear in mind, this came out 20 years before the Abrams.
It basically explains how the British 3-piece ammo works and is my justification as to why the British tanks are unfairly gimped and deserve a better fire rate.

My list of ideals:

  • Chieftain and Challenger 1 lines price buff
  • Chieftain and Challenger 1 lines +1 ROF, +2 for 1Mk3 with the redesigned loader compartment
  • Chieftain Mk.10 -> 2275m cannon range
  • Chimera buff — you can do literally anything with this that you want because it's a paper tank. The simplest thing that could help it is matching the cannon with the Challenger 1Mk2, since it's the same weapon; being allowed to fire on the move within its narrow cannon arc would also be nice
  • ADATS range and accuracy buff — this thing could be the filler in the air defense role hole that CMW so desperately needs. It also sucks in its own right when IRL it's stupidly effective
  • British Tracked Rapier FSA -> FSB or FSB2 (explicitly rejected on basis of Category air defense)
  • British Javelin -> Starstreak prototype (explicitly rejected)
  • Canadian Wolverine Javelin -> Starstreak prototype (by extension of no British Starstreak, also basically rejected)
  • Canadian Naval AShM plane -> ANZAC ASF (explicitly rejected due to no more re-roles allowed)

None of these require any model or skin changes — just stats and text — and all of them are authentic.

At a lower priority: buff Warrior IFV cannon, Lynx 3 price reduction, Vickers Mk.11 -> 45pts, give Brits the ANZAC Phantom in a different role (I understand that ANZAC never used it as an ASF anyway). I don't consider these to be major players in the CMW lineup and, given a finite number of changes, I'd rather they go to the above list. Air force and infantry are competent enough; it's the vehicle battles where Commonwealth is at its greatest disadvantage.

And for NORAD's sake, make the Canadian Hornets and amphibious units available to marine decks.
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Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

Postby Xeno426 » Tue 20 Oct 2015 21:03

Mister Maf wrote:[list][*]Chieftain and Challenger 1 lines price buff

With an ROF buff, the Chieftain probably won't need a price buff.

Mister Maf wrote:[*]British Tracked Rapier FSA -> FSB or FSB2 (explicitly rejected on basis of Category air defense)

Well, I'd point out that by the FSA, the range of the Rapier was the same as the Roland 2, so the FSA could get a buff in range to make it equal to the Roland 2 (or the Roland 2 nerfed to the FSA's range).

Mister Maf wrote:buff Warrior IFV cannon, Lynx 3 price reduction, Vickers Mk.11 -> 45pts, give Brits the ANZAC Phantom in a different role (I understand that ANZAC never used it as an ASF anyway).

Well, the Warrior's cannon can't get stabilizers, and I don't know how much more accurate it could reasonably get. It would be nice if it could fire more or less continuously (or with very low reload times, given how it was fed) and had better HE to make up for the lower ROF.
I forgot about the Lynx 3 and Vickers. Don't know about the Vickers (never used it), but the Lynx was really not worth the price.

And the Australians only used the Phantom from 1970 to 1973 as a stop-gap until they got their F-111Cs. So, not only was it out of service by the start of the game (by seven years), but it shares the same design space as the Mirage IIIO(F).
Which reminds me, the Mirage IIIO(F) should be cheaper.

Mister Maf wrote:Air force and infantry are competent enough; it's the vehicle battles where Commonwealth is at its greatest disadvantage.

And air defense. Massively.

Too bad they never added the Thunderbird transport as a launch vehicle (there were provision for launch from it) or the Bloodhound Mk.IV.
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Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

Postby Kastev » Tue 20 Oct 2015 21:30

SAS in the campaign even have ground transport options. (And you get 4 F-111C's, but not like that'll ever happen for multiplayer :lol: )

It makes no sense for them not to have a Stolly or something as a transport option

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Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

Postby wargamer1985 » Tue 20 Oct 2015 21:48

Air Defence and Air Force are the most obvious issues with the Commonwealth in it's current state, there is simply a lack of diversity and cost-efficiency within these categories. The Rapier series could obviously use a range buff, especially with the radar variant. At it's current state the Commonwealth is unable to provide an adequate Air Defense Network.
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Re: The Save the Commonwealth thread

Postby Fade2Gray » Tue 20 Oct 2015 21:50

Add this quote to Chally 1 and 2 tanks...

"Did someone order tea?" when you click on one.
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