[AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

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ZxGanon
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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

Postby ZxGanon » Mon 11 Apr 2016 11:33

Fab wrote:Hi guys,

Concerning the "shadow patching" seen by ZxGanon :
- The rate of fire of the Abrams did not change (1 shot / 4s, 1 shot / 3s for the tusk 1 and 1 shot / 2s for the tusk 2).
- For the prison modul, in the patch 282, it went from $1750 (44s) to $2000 (50s), and did not change since that patch.
- The change on the US Non Lethal Tactics ($4000 -> $3000) occured on patch 296. We did forget to mention it.
- The change on the Skycrane is a part of the fixes on builders mentionned in the patch.

For the other demands :
1. Still no unarmed Scout Recon Team for the early game.
Indeed and not planned.

2. Defcon 2 needs a price decrease (that´s what US desperately needs right now).
Touchy balance, defcon 2 unlocks very powerfull units. Price decrease will be a major game changing for the US.

3. Fighter Jets (Raptor, Pak FA and Berkut)
We will investigate this one. That was not our feeling on our latest tests.

4. Jackals are too fast because of this one patch where the on road speed got increased.
What problem(s) did you encounter with the speed of the jackal ? The overall feeling is quite good. So maybe we could fix the problem(s) due to it's speed if you could be more precise.

5. Vipers are killing everything
We actualy are working on it.

6. I still would recommend to add stances in the game like aggressive, defensive, hold position, and hold fire that actually works.
Not planned.

7. The damage statistics
Not planned.

8. Reintroduce the laddersystem and seperate 1v1 and 2v2
Not planned.

9. Last important point from my side would be to add a Tutorial
Not planned for the moment.

10. Maybe add Crushing to overdrive infantry with a tiny please? :)
No.

Thx for your feedback !

Thank you for the quick answer. Im Feeling better right now since Im aware now of your decisions.

I can describe the Problems with defcon 2, Jets and Jackals if you want me to do that.

US is in our test ins in a weird Spot. They are able to get and hold mapcontrole at some point but Slips away after the other factions kick in with their Bank control since US sniper Hits only at defcon 2. And even though you manage some how to survive the early game against the heavy Pressure of Cartel and chimera you still need your armory tech with tusk and/or NLOS guidance to hold the ground against their Arsenal. You do not unlock powerfull units with defcon 2. You unlock good upgrades which finally make your units Worth the money spend on them. Without tusk 1 you cannot even consider building ThunderBolts and Abrams because of their high costs and low effectiveness. And building a heavy vehicle bay to only produce nlos cannons slows you down big time...If you are not already dead at this point. Guardians are only worth getting build with nlos guidance. There are 2 players dotdash and andre_b which have even more Experience I guess they will answer on this thread in a few hours.

Jets Feel super underwhelming atm because their costs do not Match their effectiveness. You have to Commit around 4k for the ACC and another 3k to Produce one jet if you are in desprate need of them. They do not kill choppers or at least you need like 4 turns to kill 2 of them from Maybe 7-8. Raptors are supposed to be the Best fighters right now but they cannot even kill Avangers they miss so many shots that you need 3 Raptors to kill an Avangers with 100% Chance. But the other Avangers behind the Killed one will not even receive damage because Raptors are so fast that they cannot target those anymore.

To the point with the Jackal:
This unit is not just too fast. It can Transport infantry, detect stealth while having the same costs as a US sniper. This thing is a powerhouse. Dont get me wrong I like Cartel being super strong atm but I Feel like the Jackal should be unlocked with Black Ops because of what it Provides for Cartel. Maybe switchIng the jackal with the scout cgs would be a fair idea since Cartel can clear Banks already with 3 Different tactics (Napalm Bombe, Proxy Artillery turret and Scorpio smoke + contractors).

Not planned means not denied which means we could convince you guys to still add it right? Atm it is super frustrating for players (especially New ones) to die to rushes and other weird shinnenigans because they could not scout it in time. It is such a big deal to play the early game without proper scout. Hell even playing Random is op atm because all 3 factions can use Different early game openers and if you started with the wrong choice you can basically leave the game.
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DrunkenCyclop
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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

Postby DrunkenCyclop » Mon 11 Apr 2016 12:19

ZxGanon wrote:3. Fighter Jets (Raptor, Pak FA and Berkut) still are not worth getting build.


Actually air superiority fighters can kill groups of Avengers, even with counter-measure.
Don't forget that the the air superiority fighters are very hard to shot down, especially for ground anti-air. They are perfect when used as recon.

But I see your point and I understand the problem. We're looking at this.

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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

Postby ZxGanon » Mon 11 Apr 2016 12:23

Cyclope wrote:
ZxGanon wrote:3. Fighter Jets (Raptor, Pak FA and Berkut) still are not worth getting build.


Actually air superiority fighters can kill groups of Avengers, even with counter-measure.
Don't forget that the the air superiority fighters are very hard to shot down, especially for ground anti-air. They are perfect when used as recon.

But I see your point and I understand the problem. We're looking at this.

I Thank you. Well as a good scout I still prefer building little birds.

If you need replays we could collect some.
Last edited by ZxGanon on Mon 11 Apr 2016 12:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

Postby Cruelty » Mon 11 Apr 2016 12:27

The problem with Jets right now is their frontal vision. They have 360 degrees vision right now, which doesnt make sense, if they had long range vision in a cone in front of them, they would spot enemy aircraft/helicopters much faster, and shoot much sooner, so they would actually shoot more than 1 missile per run. This was done the exact same way in the original Act of War, where jets fired their missiles from half of the map away. Yes, this sounds broken in theory, but as Act of War proved, practically it isnt.

Because of this you can even cover your own aircraft. Lets say you order in a couple of avengers to protect your left flank, your opponent sees this and sends his Berkuts to counter, now the US player sees this and sends his own jets, and because of the speed and frontal visibility, the raptors can take out the berkuts before losing all of his avengers. Even sending a single one to lure out enemy fighters is a great little strategy you could use to trap the enemy air force.

The recent changes to the jets, namely the speed and instant arrival on the map, indicated that you wanted jets to be a hard counter against air threats, with the level of effectiveness based on the players own reaction time. I thoroughly endorse this change, it is great, if only the jets actually shot something down.

I honestly feel there is no need for any other changes, than just adjusting the vision a jet gives and the range at which it starts shooting. We want jets to be great because it can finally open up an AIR DOMINANCE strategy that this game definitely needs in team games.

Hope this clarifies a few things,
/Cruelty

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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

Postby Megiddo » Mon 11 Apr 2016 12:51

Honestly ZxGanon those are some legitimate concerns imo...

ZxGanon wrote:
US is in our test ins in a weird Spot. They are able to get and hold mapcontrole at some point but Slips away after the other factions kick in with their Bank control since US sniper Hits only at defcon 2. And even though you manage some how to survive the early game against the heavy Pressure of Cartel and chimera you still need your armory tech with tusk and/or NLOS guidance to hold the ground against their Arsenal. You do not unlock powerfull units with defcon 2. You unlock good upgrades which finally make your units Worth the money spend on them. Without tusk 1 you cannot even consider building ThunderBolts and Abrams because of their high costs and low effectiveness. And building a heavy vehicle bay to only produce nlos cannons slows you down big time...If you are not already dead at this point. Guardians are only worth getting build with nlos guidance. There are 2 players dotdash and andre_b which have even more Experience I guess they will answer on this thread in a few hours.

ZxGanon wrote:To the point with the Jackal:
This unit is not just too fast. It can Transport infantry, detect stealth while having the same costs as a US sniper. This thing is a powerhouse. Dont get me wrong I like Cartel being super strong atm but I Feel like the Jackal should be unlocked with Black Ops because of what it Provides for Cartel. Maybe switchIng the jackal with the scout cgs would be a fair idea since Cartel can clear Banks already with 3 Different tactics (Napalm Bombe, Proxy Artillery turret and Scorpio smoke + contractors).


This is only my humble point of view, but :

- I agree that the Jackal could require Blackops (Maybe the Shershens as well given how the Vipers are performing at the moment and more generally how the Cartel game course is really easier to develop before Blackops, compared to US or Chimera). To compensate, i think that the Punisher could come back a little earlier in the game course and require the prison module only, maybe along with a little price reduction, but not too much as it is quite durable and has a good healing power (HPS), even if it's compensated by its low damage output.

- In addition, for the US, the Field Hospital could use a little price reduction (not too much regarding the number of PoWs it can hold), or at least something for the Medivac/Dustoff : If not a price/construction time reduction, maybe a bit more HP and Healing power (Heal per Second).

- For Chimera, imo the Ninja could require the Shield Protocol (let the Stingers upgrade and the Fennek untouched but raise a bit the Superhind price as a counterpart). And here again, something to bring the Namer back to a better place. A little price reduction or a better construction time, or a bit of HPS more, given the price of the SAS, and the superior price of the Felins, compared to the contractors and Marines, and even compared to vipers and javelins btw (CQC upgrade needs Sword protocol in addition). Please get rid of the broken Heal/revive skill from the Prison to compensate. Those skills take the place of the Namer unit too easily, in an unfair way given their prices.

It's time to allow the Infantry + Healing units builds to exist in a fair manner, earlier in the game course.


ZxGanon wrote:Jets Feel super underwhelming atm because their costs do not Match their effectiveness. You have to Commit around 4k for the ACC and another 3k to Produce one jet if you are in desprate need of them. They do not kill choppers or at least you need like 4 turns to kill 2 of them from Maybe 7-8. Raptors are supposed to be the Best fighters right now but they cannot even kill Avangers they miss so many shots that you need 3 Raptors to kill an Avangers with 100% Chance. But the other Avangers behind the Killed one will not even receive damage because Raptors are so fast that they cannot target those anymore. .


The problem with Jets is their too narrow cone of detection. given the fact that we can't control the trajectory once the "strike" order is given, and can't anticipate the enemy choppers movements, it's really easy to miss the good "corridor" unless having to make superior expenses and send several jets with shifted trajectories to cover a wider zone. Not really cost effective indeed... Anyways choppers with the chaffs upgrades got a dodge rate buff if i remember well, and if you nerf this dodge rate while improving the cone detection/range of the jets against them, they'll become too easy targets...specially regarding the poor attack range of the choppers (except the NLOS Guardians that work well, and seem fair from this point of view) and their physics. they're already at a clear disadvantage against ground AA units using bullet attacks (SAS, HMGs...). Quite unrealistic if you want my opinion.
Last edited by Megiddo on Mon 11 Apr 2016 14:43, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

Postby torinus » Mon 11 Apr 2016 13:11

If Jackal is moved to Black Ops Cartel needs some other unit to be stealth detector. Black Ops is too far away and too costly to be where you get that (railgun tower is also at black ops and after Tokamak). And still Chimera will be too strong early for too long.

OK ScoutCGS with flame upgrade could be used instead to clear buildings. Not sure if you people would want that as they are even better at that task due to bigger unit carry capacity and stealth. They would need to remove stealth from ScoutCGS and put an upgrade to get it back at BlackOps as they could be abused too early to capture everything everywhere.

Too much bother because USA is weaker at bank capture. Buff something from USA instead. Both Chimera and Cartel have early access to smoke now, give smoke to USA at defcon 3.

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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

Postby Megiddo » Mon 11 Apr 2016 13:31

torinus wrote:They would need to remove stealth from ScoutCGS and put an upgrade to get it back at BlackOps as they could be abused too early to capture everything everywhere.



It could be perfect along with the changes suggested earlier. Stealth coming as soon as Blackops is unlocked.
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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

Postby ZxGanon » Mon 11 Apr 2016 13:48

Well to be honest I Do not really Care about balance atm.

I am super sad that core Features like stances and scout recons are not even planed yet. Beta is all about gameplay so that frustrating stuff gets Eliminated. Balance is something I would not even try to fix yet.

Also the fact that US overall does not Feel correct. A lot of costs and unit behaviors make no Sense. Default units of US without tusk 1 cost too much and with tusk they get insanly good. Make Default units better or decrease their costs because the early game of US is super weak and decreasing the cost of defcon 2 would be the Most easy change.

ReworkIng the entIre us early game is something you guys are not able to fullfill. You do not have the time for that.
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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

Postby torinus » Mon 11 Apr 2016 14:29

ZxGanon wrote:Well to be honest I Do not really Care about balance atm.

I am super sad that core Features like stances and scout recons are not even planed yet. Beta is all about gameplay so that frustrating stuff gets Eliminated. Balance is something I would not even try to fix yet.

Also the fact that US overall does not Feel correct. A lot of costs and unit behaviors make no Sense. Default units of US without tusk 1 cost too much and with tusk they get insanly good. Make Default units better or decrease their costs because the early game of US is super weak and decreasing the cost of defcon 2 would be the Most easy change.

ReworkIng the entIre us early game is something you guys are not able to fullfill. You do not have the time for that.

Yes, maybe while Chimera is king of banks, Cartel is king of fast expanding due to flying constructor, USA should be most cost effective in direct attack in early game. Like USA could easily go for enemy buildings and kill some if other two factions don't prepare and play their standard greedy game.
Last edited by torinus on Mon 11 Apr 2016 15:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.335 ... + NEW MAP

Postby ZxGanon » Mon 11 Apr 2016 15:12

In an RTS to create a good design all factions need their own "personality" and Chimera and Cartel got their own. When Im comparring AoA to a CnC I see Cartel as Nod and Chimera as a allrounder spammy faction with shitty units. Both factions work pretty good in the new version.

But in my opinion US has failed in their kind of design. I would try to compare US with GDI. Their units cost a lot more than those of the other factions but they are the most durable ones on the battle field and their upgrades make them even more superior.

US has no good units (except Humvee and infantry) before you hit Defcon 2 with Tusk 1 and NLOS Guidance. Their default units without upgrades are not worth getting build overall. The ACCE might be something you could effort without Tusk 1 but even than you pretty much waste money if you do not use them in Tusk 1 mode since they become ridiculously good. If you lose a unit without Tusk 1 you fall behind since you lost a possible Tusk 1 unit. That´s why US uses Humvees and infantry in the early stages till Defcon 2 and the upgrades from the armory hit.

So what is the problem? It is super simple. Because Tusk 1 being so good in their effect of doubeling the HP of every Light Vehicle Bay unit they had to make their default version shit. But that is no excuse. I think the whole theme of US needs a rework so that US finally becomes a thing in the Reboot Edition.

So what should reveice a change that Defcon 2 needs no cost decrease?
- Increase the costs of Thunderbolts to 1600 $ but increase their HP to 15
- Increase the costs of ACCE to 800 $ and increase their HP to 12
- Mortar Tanks are fine in my book
- Move Blazers to Defcon 3 and increase their damage/AoE or their sight range
- Tusk 1 should not automatically double the HP of all units that can receive it (+5 for Thunderbolts, +8 for ACCE)
- Decrease the costs of the armory since the building itself only provides the upgrades and nothing else
- Reduce the costs of the Logistical Centre because the only reason to build this is to produce super costly Hercules...
- The default Abrams is worthless without Tusk 1...so there are changes needed aswell

And many more changes I might have forgotten. These are just some ideas to give US a "personality" so that it receives a different playstyle different form the other factions. US needs durable but costly units that win direct engagements from the start.

A costly but tanky Thunderbolt finally wins a direct fight against Pumas without Tusk 1 and he takes 3 shots from a Scorpio before it dies. But you need to invest a lot to make that play happen but it needs possible value and interesting strategies to even use that move.

I dont care if these ideas get noticed or not. These are just my 2 cents what I would change at the current game because it is a shame what US has become in the new version. But I am not the Game Designer and I am not one to tell someone how to do his job and how he wants his game to become a success.

Currently I just dont see it and Im sorry for that.

ZxGanon
Last edited by ZxGanon on Mon 11 Apr 2016 16:18, edited 2 times in total.
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