Leave no man behind: WGermany

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Capion
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Leave no man behind: WGermany

Postby Capion » Fri 20 Jan 2017 14:06

I like to point out one more time (if only for my own peace of mind) that the WGerman deck has been woefully left behind. The deck has been constantly nerfed over 2 years and any upgrades have been sidegrades or minor cost-efficiency buffs at best.
Its equipment is 10-15 rl years behind and as a result its a pain to play on its own. But even its contributions to the coaltions, while necessary, are mediocre at best and most of the time just fillers to half-way paint over the deficiencies of its coaltion partners and lately even that role was reduced to a minimum (EC).

I will point out its state tab by tab. I like to make very clear that not all of this (or even most of it) needs changing, but I do think that it is high time that Eugen decides where they see the advantage of playing WGermany or what its significant contributions to the coaltions are, beyond a mere provider of half-decent necessities and 2 super-heavies. The current state is unworthy for a cold-war front-line nation, expected to bear the brunt of an initial pact assault.

INF:
Fallschirmjäger '90:
Are no doubt extremely good, but it is a 35 pt. infantry unit, which is almost never worth it without some added advantage, like napalm, long-range AT, AA or a very good transport. I mention this more to point out that the one really good unit in the entire deck (besides the 2A5) is really not that good.
Jäger:
What was once the best 10 pointer infantry is now the worst 15 pointer. To me it would have been acceptable at 15 pts before the MG and BR rebalance but now far worse infantry with better transports easily deal with them, not to mention their weird AT and enemy shock infantry at the same price. This kind of cumulative nerfing is exactly the problem I see with the entire deck. Put it back to 10 pts or buff their AT.
Marder (all variants):
Their usefulness is very limited for their price. The either lack range or RoF and their armor advantage is mostly redundant. The least thing you could do is making the Marder 2 available to Deckungsgruppe for cost-efficiency and while you're at it: Buff Deckungsgruppe. Deckungsgruppen are formed from the unit they serve in. In this case that would be PzGren. Make them shock and give them the G3 for 15 pts. They wouldnt be more surviveable but could dish out a little more damage before the inevitably die. They would still be balanced with both Ildstoddengruppe '85 and SMAW which both have far better AT. And just to point out how dire the situation is atm: If you did that particular change it wouldnt even add another German unit to any of the coaltion decks. It would very likely just replace the PzGren.

SUP:
The lack of ir or optical AA is permissable flavor it seems, but then at least it should have a strong radar option. Buffing the reload time of the Rolands will do that.

TNK:
The 2a5 of course is a ray of sunshine for the deck itself and the coaltions (although it could use a 3rd one for the national deck only). The 2A4 and 2A1 variants are slightly underperfoming compared to their competition and the deck lacks a good medium tank, which is both very hurtful in the current meta and easy to change: Medium optics for the Leo 2 are long overdue.

REC:
No combat recce infantry. The Tiger is probably the least cost-efficent unit in game (I am not saying its useless). The 1A1 is good but not competetive with current (better armored) recce tanks (Blazer, Isvidjac, T-55 Recce) further exacerbating the medium tank issue. Make it a Leo 2 Aufkl. for 80 pts. Would solve the TNK tab issue and the holy yugo tank of Oz would still be much better.

VEH:
I wont even start. Accepted that one long ago. Just for protocols sake: If you see the VTS as some kind of flavor you wont get around upping its RoF and optics. And btw its based on the Marder, which armor was buffed.

HEL:
Whatever (as in whatever the Stinger-BOH is good for)

AIR:
Maybe 2 AMRAAMs on the ERC instead of 4 completely useless missles to justify the price for a SEAD plane and the turn radius the Tornados deserve? Making the Peace Rhine better is probably out of the question with the SEM buff.
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GBNATO
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Re: Leave no man behind: WGermany

Postby GBNATO » Fri 20 Jan 2017 14:48

I think this more a symptom of the new DLC nations, for the most part they've been implemented with very modern equipment and extremely powerful units. 'Original' nations lose their shine when compared to the gucci stuff that has been added.
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Re: Leave no man behind: WGermany

Postby Terracos » Fri 20 Jan 2017 14:55

In my oppinion only a few changes would make the Bundeswehr more efficient and a good partner in EC.

INF:
Change Jäger back to 10points. The reason it went up to 15 was because pre-ifv-patch the 16points on the AT were too good. This is not the case anymore, it needs now two shots for most meta-ifv like all the other medium ATs (14-16AP).

SUP:
Bring avail up a bit for Gepards and Rolands. More changes are not essential, they are good assets but lack the avail.

TANK:
Leos are in a good spot, maybe 5points overpriced for the A1,A4 but not more. Leo2 to medium wont make that much of a difference as you anyway need Rec all the time.

REC:
No combat recce is no problem as France provides them. For WGermany only you play around this. Other nations also have to play around holes. For the Tiger: Its a weird unit, and either needs a price drop or a change in the loadout, i prefer the latter as it is also IRL conform. Drop the pods and give it 8Hot3 (only requires new stats, model can stay). This might be comming with a price nerf of 10 points as the Hot3 will have higher accuracy and AP.

VEH:
Its ok, France brings here some options. TOW2 Wiesel is good for 1v1 on most maps, Kanonenjagdpanzer is a ok fire support due to high rate of fire.

HELO:
France brings the cassiopee, thats all a game needs. The german hot and stinger one are ok.

AIR:
Fix bomb pattern on the tornado, change peace rhine. Thats it. In EC you can get the french low end SEAD or the german high end one. Which also serves multi role purposes, as you can kill helos in the outer parts of the map after a sead run or vice versa.

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Re: Leave no man behind: WGermany

Postby GBNATO » Fri 20 Jan 2017 15:10

Balance around coalitions was such an aids concept.
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Re: Leave no man behind: WGermany

Postby CandyMan » Fri 20 Jan 2017 15:14

Pf44 to 15 ap or less then you can have 10 pt jager.
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Capion
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Re: Leave no man behind: WGermany

Postby Capion » Fri 20 Jan 2017 15:34

CandyMan wrote:Pf44 to 15 ap or less then you can have 10 pt jager.


That would still leave the Jäger under-performing because of their transport. I would like some good units for the deck itself and to contribute to the coalitions, not more mediocre ones. 19 AP Chasseurs '85 with bullpup and 3 AV transport would still arguably be preferable. As I said, this isnt necessarily the change thats needed, their are other possibilities, like the Deckungsgruppe buff.

Let me point out: ATM there are exactly 3 (!) WGerman units that contribute significantly to EC (aka the only reasons to play EC over France). Those are the Leo2A5, the Leo2A4 and PzGren '90 in Marder 2. Additionally the latter two are overall mediocre units which just happen to fill gaps. Of course your are better off taking more German units, but everything else (but those 3) France can cover with only very little compromising. That isnt balance.
Last edited by Capion on Fri 20 Jan 2017 15:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leave no man behind: WGermany

Postby karsayor » Fri 20 Jan 2017 15:35

Good suggestions, price should be set accordingly for 8 HOTS3 Tiger and autoloader Roland, but it would be a good thing without making Eurocorps OP. Maybe a Marder2 HE buff could be added.

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Re: Leave no man behind: WGermany

Postby Lord Helmchen » Fri 20 Jan 2017 15:38

GBNATO wrote:Balance around coalitions was such an aids concept.

According to Eugen the game is balanced around nations... :roll:
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Re: Leave no man behind: WGermany

Postby nuke92 » Fri 20 Jan 2017 15:43

Any chance of a PAH-2 Tiger with Trigat LR?
Is it really that much ootf? I mean we have Spike MR and LR allready...
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Re: Leave no man behind: WGermany

Postby Oktoberfest » Fri 20 Jan 2017 15:45

Lord Helmchen wrote:
GBNATO wrote:Balance around coalitions was such an aids concept.

According to Eugen the game is balanced around nations... :roll:


Yeah, that statement change as often as the topic bringing the balance issue !! :D

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